Choosing seeds to save

LordHill

LordHill

There are alot of mixed messages going around about selecting seeds it seems. On the forums in the last month I have read that it doesnt matter if you save seeds from the best shaped pods or random pods as the resulting genes arent pod specific, but plant specific... on the flip side I read that you want seeds from the biggest best looking pods on the plant. Most vendors claim to only select seeds from the best pods.. And everytime an interesting pod shows up on THP everyone says to make sure they save the seeds...

Plant genetics is confusing. I keep seeds from the pods that best represent the variety I planted, I am just curious if the seeds of those pods are =, >, or < the seeds of other pods on the same plant
 
The plant will pass the genetics to all pods produced from it.
The genetics is mostly dependent on the plant being isolated during all pollination of all resulting fruit.
When a special looking pod shows up and the comment to save seeds from it is made, it is because in some cases, it is the only pod(assumed of course).
 
So it doesnt matter if the vendor selects a perfect pod to get seeds from or any old pod.. thats kind of dissapointing
 
I think its good information to have Phil. It makes a difference on my future grows. I asked and Capcom answered. Now I know that to improve next season I need to save seeds from my best plants, even if I have better looking pods on a lesser plant
 
No doubt. I  hear ya. It doesn't hurt to wonder. But you can plant two seeds from the same exceptional pod, and have both of them grow differently. It's generally a crapshoot. Just saying that trying to pick seeds from the best pod of your best producer won't necessarily guarantee anything. As Capcom alluded too, seeds from less than ideal plants and pods can also grow true and magnificently. I guess it can't hurt to try to reproduce from your best stock, but it won't guarantee anything, either. This is why people sow lots of seeds and cull  the weakest seedlings.
 
I apologize if it seems I'm trying to pooh pooh your thoughts. I'm not.
 
I tend to save seed the way my grandparents taught me:  Select the best quality earliest fruits.  Reason being that you want robust fruits to pass on their genes, and early fruits to minimize cross pollination.  That could be a loada, but it's worked for me.
 
I will always save my seeds from the best looking pods on the best looking plants that perform the best in my conditions.  Artificial selection based on phenotypic expression corresponding to my aesthetic desires..
 
LordHill said:
There are alot of mixed messages going around about selecting seeds it seems. On the forums in the last month I have read that it doesnt matter if you save seeds from the best shaped pods or random pods as the resulting genes arent pod specific, but plant specific... on the flip side I read that you want seeds from the biggest best looking pods on the plant. Most vendors claim to only select seeds from the best pods.. And everytime an interesting pod shows up on THP everyone says to make sure they save the seeds...

Plant genetics is confusing. I keep seeds from the pods that best represent the variety I planted, I am just curious if the seeds of those pods are =, >, or < the seeds of other pods on the same plant
Click to expand...
 
As I understand it:
 
EDITED!
 
Genetically, all seeds from all flowers/pods should have equal chances of being true to the parent plant.  If a given seed was pollinated by the parent plant, it will display some mix of parental DNA; assorted genes may or may not be expressed, depending on how they get mixed.  If the pollen arrived from another plant, you'll get an anything-goes hybrid seed.
 
Each flower absorbs hundreds of pollen grains, and each one pollinates one seed within the pod.  So one pod can produce seeds that are either true, or hybrid.
 
That said, a big healthy pod may well produce bigger, more viable seeds than a nutrient-starved runt.
 
The pod itself grows entirely from the parent plant.  Pollen DNA has no effect on pod shape, heat, etc.
 
SmokenFire said:
I tend to save seed the way my grandparents taught me:  Select the best quality earliest fruits.  Reason being that you want robust fruits to pass on their genes, and early fruits to minimize cross pollination.  That could be a loada, but it's worked for me.
Click to expand...
Same for me.
 
How could select a specific strain? How could develop and stabilize a new cross? You follow the characteristics you want to have, selecting those pods. If you have in mind that no matter the pod shape, all of them have the characteristics of plant, how can you do your selection?
 
Geonerd said:
As I understand it:
 
Genetically, all seeds from all flowers/pods should have equal chances of being true to the parent plant.  If a given seed was pollinated by the parent plant, is should be a perfect clone.  If the pollen arrived from another plant, you'll get a hybrid seed.
 
Each flower absorbs hundreds of pollen grains, and each one pollinates one seed within the pod.  So one pod can produce seeds that are either true, or hybrid.
 
That said, a big healthy pod may well produce bigger, more viable seeds than a nutrient-starved runt.
 
The pod itself grows entirely from the parent plant.  Pollen DNA has no effect on pod shape, heat, etc.
Click to expand...
Except for subsiquent generations. This is the whole purpose being crossing for better all around peppers. And saving seed.
 
Geonerd said:
 
As I understand it:
Genetically, all seeds from all flowers/pods should have equal chances of being true to the parent plant.  If a given seed was pollinated by the parent plant, is should be a perfect clone.  If the pollen arrived from another plant, you'll get a hybrid seed.
Each flower absorbs hundreds of pollen grains, and each one pollinates one seed within the pod.  So one pod can produce seeds that are either true, or hybrid.
That said, a big healthy pod may well produce bigger, more viable seeds than a nutrient-starved runt.
The pod itself grows entirely from the parent plant.  Pollen DNA has no effect on pod shape, heat, etc.
Click to expand...
 
Basically this. Individual pod quality reflects seed quality to an extent but has zero relation to seed genetics. Plant quality and average pod quality reflect seed genetics and plant treatment but are only half the story as there are two parents to any plant, though careful isolation can ensure that the second parent is, infact, the same plant as the first.
 
So save the best pods over the worst but look at your plants first.
 
Geonerd said:
 
As I understand it:
 
Genetically, all seeds from all flowers/pods should have equal chances of being true to the parent plant.  If a given seed was pollinated by the parent plant, is should be a perfect clone.  If the pollen arrived from another plant, you'll get a hybrid seed.
 
Each flower absorbs hundreds of pollen grains, and each one pollinates one seed within the pod.  So one pod can produce seeds that are either true, or hybrid.
 
That said, a big healthy pod may well produce bigger, more viable seeds than a nutrient-starved runt.
 
The pod itself grows entirely from the parent plant.  Pollen DNA has no effect on pod shape, heat, etc.
Click to expand...
I'm not a genetics expert at all, but if I recall correctly, the only way to get a perfect clone of the parent is to actually clone the parent. via rooting a cutting or other such technique...
 
any time you involve pollination, even self pollination crossing parent A x parent A, you spin the genetic roulette wheel. A quick search on google will describe the process of meiotic gamete formation and it allows for the genetics to get mixed up even for self pollinating plants.
 
my take away from the forums on seed saving...
1. Cool pods are a characteristic of the parent, if you like a pod shape, clone the parent.
    1.a. cool pod genetics "could" be passed to daughter seeds.
2. Choose robust healthy looking pods for robust healthy seeds.
3. Choose pods off plants that express phenotypes you like...yield, color, shape, disease resistance...etc.
    3.a. that means you could be choosing pods off plants that express an interesting color, but are runty or poor yielding...but in future generations you could try to select your desired pheno, but also choose for a more robust plant.
 
a clone is a clone
pollination is a daughter(variation)
 
hopefully thats helpful?
please correct me if i'm wrong, its been a long time since genetics, and i had to google to see if plants even did meiosis.
 
Theoretically, I have always thought that the best way to "save seeds" from a given variety would be to take clones of the two most healthy, resistant, vigorous, prolific plants with the most aesthetically pleasing phenotypic expression in the pod shape/color, etc from your original gene pool (better to start with a large population).... over-winter those clones in isolation and allow them to pollinate each other.  Save the seeds from each side of the cross, grow those out.. and repeat the process.  Also... to get really wild... let those "studs" breed with other varieties for which you have also taken clones and isolated the most appealing genetics. 
 
Malarky said:
I'm not a genetics expert at all, but if I recall correctly, the only way to get a perfect clone of the parent is to actually clone the parent. via rooting a cutting or other such technique...
any time you involve pollination, even self pollination crossing parent A x parent A, you spin the genetic roulette wheel. A quick search on google will describe the process of meiotic gamete formation and it allows for the genetics to get mixed up even for self pollinating plants.
 
a clone is a clone
pollination is a daughter(variation)
 
hopefully thats helpful?
please correct me if i'm wrong, its been a long time since genetics, and i had to google to see if plants even did meiosis.
Click to expand...
 
A perfect clone is, as you say, only obtainable from cuttings and similar but, depending on your definition, a plant produced through self-polination could be considered a clone aswell.
I would term this an "imperfect clone" as, barring any random mutations, the offspring of self-polination will have entirely the genetics of the parent but may express and/or lose some formerly recessive genes, making them non-identical.
 
Malarky said:
I'm not a genetics expert at all, but if I recall correctly, the only way to get a perfect clone of the parent is to actually clone the parent. via rooting a cutting or other such technique...
 
any time you involve pollination, even self pollination crossing parent A x parent A, you spin the genetic roulette wheel. A quick search on google will describe the process of meiotic gamete formation and it allows for the genetics to get mixed up even for self pollinating plants.
 
my take away from the forums on seed saving...
1. Cool pods are a characteristic of the parent, if you like a pod shape, clone the parent.
    1.a. cool pod genetics "could" be passed to daughter seeds.
2. Choose robust healthy looking pods for robust healthy seeds.
3. Choose pods off plants that express phenotypes you like...yield, color, shape, disease resistance...etc.
    3.a. that means you could be choosing pods off plants that express an interesting color, but are runty or poor yielding...but in future generations you could try to select your desired pheno, but also choose for a more robust plant.
 
a clone is a clone
pollination is a daughter(variation)
 
hopefully thats helpful?
please correct me if i'm wrong, its been a long time since genetics, and i had to google to see if plants even did meiosis.
Click to expand...
 
Yea, you're right.  I totally spaced basic DUAL chromosome genetics.   :mope:
If nothing else, it certainly makes sense in that a strain will 'stabilize' with further generations.   
 
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