media Coco peat ruined my seedlings and this whole season!

[future_man]

If you look at my previous thread http://thehotpepper.com/topic/54314-stunted-growth-and-curled-leaves-couple-of-theories/ you can see black leaves that me and you guys thought were the cause of too much light. My plants were stunted, most of them died, some of them are SLOWLY getting better but my growing season is screwed. I am still so angry!
 
Now check out this new plant:
 

 
 
Same light, same conditions and it got this big in just 2 weeks, my previous batch remained the same for 2 months. Only difference is I didn't mix coco peat with my soil. SCREW COCO PEAT! That bastard single-handedly sabotaged my entire growing year! And I messed all of my boliwian rainbow, lemon drop and carolina reaper seeds, that aren't so easy to get here.
 
I am wondering, is it possible that coco peat had too much salt or too low PH level? Or it was just too dense and retaining moisture? I am beginning to think my seedlings couldn't absorb nutrients. Coco peat label says: PH level 5,4 - 6,8, Salt < 1 g/L (gram per liter). Those black leaves were the sign of something else but what?

 

[Brohio82]

Black leave could be a bacterial leaf spot infection from too much moisture I heard peppers need very little water especially the reapers they like it more dry. Also some ferts mess them up like I used fish fert on one then changed fert and gave it some scratch in stuff and if didn't like the change also aphids make leaves and stem go brownish black I'm kinda in same boat I used peat moss and put to much in some I only water it like every two weeks and it's hot here but it's still doing ok I got some blackening on bottoms of leaves and on some leaf veins but the plant still producing and rocking I'm thinks whTs wrong with mine is neem oil I did an early morning spray cuz aphids were on the rise last week eating my plants and I think they didn't dry off All the neem and scorched them.

 

[future_man]

And why is it that my tomato recovered so well but my chilies just don't want to get bigger? Chilies are so stubborn, this isn't the first time they don't want to recover. If you screw them at the early stage they will just stay dwarves forever! Can someone confirm that their plants got better?
 
Pic of tomato and chili:
 

 

 

[bhut camp]

Add alot more perlite then flush your media and test ph.

 

[robbyjoe01]

It's trial and error no mater how long you grow...I still am learning and always willing to try something new....best advice I can give is never put all your eggs in one basket....in this case different mediums till you get on that works great for grow...

 

[Roguejim]

I used coco coir for the first time this season, and got the worst plant edema ever.  I mixed it with bagged potting soil, and that's all it took.  The plants still grew, though.

 

[future_man]

I think this link describes what happened to me: http://www.agry.purdue.edu/ext/corn/news/timeless/purplecorn.html
 

 
 
Other stresses that can restrict photosynthate metabolism in young corn plants include several that result in restricted root growth, including herbicide injury, severe phosphorus deficiency, soil compaction caused by tillage or planter traffic, excessively wet soils, excessively dry soils, insect injury, and disease injury. 

 

[Proud Marine Dad]

I used coco coir for the first time this season, and got the worst plant edema ever.  I mixed it with bagged potting soil, and that's all it took.  The plants still grew, though.

Stick with sphagnum peat moss Jim. It's far better even though there are some who swear by coir.

 

[Lovepeppers]

I used pure coco coir with 50 percent being perlite and 10 percent worm castings. You have to ph your water / nutes at 5.5 ph with coco. You also have to feed lightly with every watering and have a 5 or 20 percent runoff every time or risk getting locked out.
It was a journey of hassle for me, so when it was time to pot up I went straight in the ground 40 plants the other 40 went in containers with promix hp. I love promix. I'm also using a potting soil from Armstrong nurseries it's called Edna's best potting soil. It has everything in there mycos, compost, mushroom compost, bat guano two types of composted bark, wetting agent, etc. that's some good stuff equivalent to happy frog/ ocean forest.

 

[Blister]

On the surface, the problem seems to be mixing two different root zone mediums (ha! see what I did there )

In terms of coir a lot of different types of coir out there. Some have lots of salt and require lots of flushing before use, while some are ready to put plants in straight out of the bag. Depends on the manufacture. What I'm saying is that not all coir is created equal. Heck some of it is too fine, while some is too course.

Coir is its own beast and I don't believe it should be mixed with soil. I don't believe it it should be mixed with half the stuff some manufactures say it should/could be. To me there a number of companies that have jumped on coir as the next best thing out there. Mix it with with this, mix it with that. In many cases it's not going to help you. In fact it may actually hinder you because it tends to lock up specific nutrients while releasing excess of others.

I've grown in peat. I have and continue to use coir. Pure hydroponic grade coir. I don't mix it with anything. I've had my trials and tribulations with it. Some days I swear by it, some days I swear at it. I've documented my experience here on THP.

From what I've learned coir requires fairly specific attention. It's not soil and shouldn't be treated as such. For example I mix nutrients suited to coir and give my plants what they need every watering. That's coir. It also has a learning curve and isn't for everyone.

I'd suggest choosing one OR the other and finding what works for you. I'd also suggest what some others have already stated above, don't put all your eggs in one basket until you figure out what works for you.

It sucks that you lost your plants. I know if I don't get it right from the beginning my season could be lost. I hope you find what works for you.

Actually I went and looked at the link you posted. You were mixing peat, coir, and vermiculite. You also had Temps running at 50 (10c). Vermiculite holds water. Coir holds water. Soil holds water though not like the others. Your temps were also cool. Sounds more like an issue of a root zone medium holding too much water while your tempos were too cool. Add to this insufficient light - judging by the looks of the leggy plants - appears to have all come together to compound your problem.

When you replanted/restarted I assume you dropped the coir. Did you also do the same with vermiculite and sub in perlite instead? Have your temperatures increased? Are you getting decent light - sun or otherwise - now?

Neil

 

[future_man]

When you replanted/restarted I assume you dropped the coir. Did you also do the same with vermiculite and sub in perlite instead? Have your temperatures increased? Are you getting decent light - sun or otherwise - now?
 

 
Yes I dropped out everything, I didn't even use perlite for my seedlings (i prefer to add it when plant grows in size)! So this time around I just had normal generic peat moss, the label says its good for germinating. But the light was the same, temperatures are a bit higher because its starting to get really hot around here even indoors. Temps weren't so cold the first time 77° F now they are around 86° F so I mostly blame the soil.
 
Last year I mixed in the coco peat when my plants were bigger, everything was fine (only one plant survived the winter though). But never, never use it when starting seeds!

 

[Blister]

 
Yes I dropped out everything, I didn't even use perlite for my seedlings (i prefer to add it when plant grows in size)! So this time around I just had normal generic peat moss, the label says its good for germinating. But the light was the same, temperatures are a bit higher because its starting to get really hot around here even indoors. Temps weren't so cold the first time 77° F now they are around 86° F so I mostly blame the soil.
 
Last year I mixed in the coco peat when my plants were bigger, everything was fine (only one plant survived the winter though). But never, never use it when starting seeds!

Glad to hear you're back to basics. Sometime's it's the easiest and best way to solve your problems.

Neil

 

[Jambo]

yep, add me to the list of those aggravated by coir. Started all my peppers in coir and perlite(10 oz cups). They grew great until transplanting to 15L pots of the same(about a third, others went into the ground with nice mix of peat, perlite and black earth). All the plants in the 15L pots of coir immediately halted growth and yellowed. I watered very conservatively. They just never seemed to drink anything for weeks.
 
I transplanted a few into the ground with the others and they immediately greened up and took off. I still have 3 or 4 in my greenhouse, sitting there at about 1.5ft tall in those pots. Same way they looked 6 weeks ago. Plants in the peat mix are flourishing and putting out lots of pepps.
 
I thought of all angles; Is it bad coco?, is it bad perlite?, are these pots cursed?, Why won't they grow?... or just die already!  It's like they're frozen in time. I haven't watered them in weeks. How are these pots holding moisture that long in a 90 - 100F greenhouse. It seems they'd dry out faster with no plants in them!
 
This winter I may do another test run indoors on 1 or 2 in coco to see if I get better results. But ya gotta ask yourself, why bother??  Soil is so much easier. 
 
What really burns me is the fact that i've grown in coco before with great results, and have 4 other plants growing in the same mix, but smaller pots, doing great right now.... and can't for the life of me figure out why they won't grow in these (new, larger)pots, with all other factors being the same.  That said, i've always had consistently good results with soil.

I'm going to test out the same pots, same coco, but only fill half full, as I have 2 toms and 2 other pepps(as mentioned above) in the same coco/perlite mix in the greenhouse... but in 8L pots, and the toms are growing out the roof, and pepps are also doing great.
 
Maybe it was too drastic of a transition to the 15L pots for the root systems to handle. If this works, i'll add more substrate as the plant grows.

 

[Blister]

yep, add me to the list of those aggravated by coir...

 
I have 3 questions to start with:
 
1. When you say you are watering your plants, what nutrient are you using with coco?
2. Do you ph your water to 5.5-6.2ish?
3. What brand coco are you using?
 
Neil

 

[Jambo]

  Was using Flora Duo w/ calmag on the zombified peppers, starting very low and worked up to about 350-400 ppm once transplanted in the large pots  But, like I mentioned, I only watered 2 or 3 times since transplanting. That's when they stopped growing/drinking.
 
  5.8 - 6.0 (meter recently calibrated)
 
   I'm currently feeding those 2 toms and 2 pepps in coco(8L pots), GH MaxiBloom around 700ppm now, and they are doing great.
 
  5kg blocks from Home Hardware  http://www.homehardware.ca/en/rec/index.htm/Outdoor-Living/Yard-Maintenance/Soil-Amendment-Stone/Soil/Peat-Moss/5kg-Beyond-Peat-Coir-Coconut-Fibre-Soil-Supplement/_/N-ntlijZ1r4p8f/R-I5053990
 
I know it's not grow shop coco, but it has worked good in the past few years(in the smaller 8L pots).  Rinsed well in large tub full of water... squeezed out by hand and put in separate tub, leaving all salt/sand residue behind.

The only thing that makes sense to me is that I over-watered the ones in the large pots.  I know that most say you should gradually increase pot size to accommodate root growth, but i've always went from pint sized pots or cups to large, 3,4 or even 5 gallon pots with soil and never had a problem with slowed growth... quite the opposite actually. You just have to water gently and gradually increase.  I'm guessing that coco is not as flexible in this regard.
 
I must have given them too much water/nutes which stunted their growth.  I was under the impression that you cannot over-water coco... and i'm sure i've read that many times on various forums.  I also thought that coco was airier(is that a word, haha) than peat and would dry out faster, but that's not been my experience.  This brand of coco is pretty fine and powdery. I did notice that the botanicare coco I bought once was quite a bit hairier and fibery. (sorry, not a good english day). Maybe this brand isn't as well suited to growing as the others.

 

[Blister]

Sounds like you've started right and have followed the cardinal rule of feeding with every watering, but had used a pot too large so that you aren't able to water very often. Jumping from a 10oz cup to 15L pot is pretty big. I have read of people jumping to extremely large pots from solo cups and having success, but it's not something I've experienced. The folks that have had success are usually dealing with a much faster growing plant than chilies and they're creating the ideal growing environment.
 
From what I've experienced, plants in coco really benefit from an "appropriate" sized pot that allows you to water a couple of times a week to a couple times of day. This usually means that they have an established root ball that can utilize the nutrient you're providing.
 
This is just a hypothetical guess on my part given that I've never gone to such a large pot from a solo cup. You said that you've had success with coco in the past, what did you do different this year?
 
Neil

 

[Chilidude]

When using coco for growing chilis:
 
1. Use only high quality coco, so it should contain less salts.
 
2. Start seed in a rockwool cubes before transplanting them in the coco.
 
3. Use fertilizers that are used in hydroponics.
 
4. i recommended to use somekind of air pruning contailers, that let the excess water to flow out of the contailer.
 
5. Let the coco dry a little bit before watering again. Check the weightiness of the container after and before watering to know when best to water again.

 

[CraigJS]

I also have read that you should rinse the coco a number of times to remove impurities. I did that, mixed with potting soil and perilite. Added Osmacote, Epsom salts.5 gal root pouches.Plants are doing well, lots of pods. (Starfish, Aji Amirillo, Star of Turkey, MOA Bonnets.) Really go through the water...

 

[Jambo]

This is just a hypothetical guess on my part given that I've never gone to such a large pot from a solo cup. You said that you've had success with coco in the past, what did you do different this year?
 
Neil

 
Yes Neil, the only difference was that pot size and that it was indoors under HID lights. 
 
I've always had success growing in the greenhouse in pots of soil, so it's not the environment. This year the potted plants are all coco/perlite. The only difference this year between those doing great and those stunted is the size of pot.
 
I used this same brand coco indoors, but in smaller pots and it worked fine. But like I said, it is quite fine and powdery, and it seems obvious to me now that it holds water a lot longer than peat. Maybe next time I use large pots of coco i'll go for the Botanicare and gradually up the pot size.

 

[Chilidude]

I used this same brand coco indoors, but in smaller pots and it worked fine. But like I said, it is quite fine and powdery, and it seems obvious to me now that it holds water a lot longer than peat. Maybe next time I use large pots of coco i'll go for the Botanicare and gradually up the pot size.

 
I only have used containers that are 10 litres or so. The plants have grown quite big in 10 litre containers and in the end the plants where full of pods.