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bottling Cold bottling

Hellraising Hot Sauce

Hellraising Hot Sauce

Question for the masses: is there ever an instance where it's ok to bottle hot sauce that has been processsed, cooked and cooled overnight -- WITHOUT then reheating it before bottling?
 
We never did this when bottling at our shared kitchen, always followed the tried and true method of processing, heating and hot filling. But I heard about someone else doing it (note to self: do NOT eat their sauce) and it made me stop and think.
 
Am I missing something? Can the acidity be low enough that this process could be safely done? Then there is also the matter of sterilizing the lids.
 
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I think that if acidity was low enough and bottles, caps, etc were thoroughly sterilized, it would be OK, but still not a best practice. The hot fill also serves to create a vaccum and airtight seal as well.
 
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Last year I kept a sauce in the fridge and always added to it with other sauces so it became an ever evolving sauce and I had it for over a year before it was gone.
 
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Yeah I think you all touched on it.
Fine for home use but don't sell it. I have several raw concoctions in my fridge, some with fruit and some just garlic, salt and peppers.
Even if ph is good, hot bottling creates a vacuum seal after cooling - Big Plus!!
 
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Sheesh...I go to work for one day... :lol:....

Y'all pretty much got it.
 

Without knowing anything about the ingredients, in theory, it is possible to have a low enough pH that it would be safe without hot packing. I'm thinking something well below 3.0.

Absolutely wouldn't consider selling it like that without PA approval.  As you guys have said, as a refrigerated item, sure, no problem.  But to give to other people or sell....I'm with Hellraising, I would probably choose to not eat that sauce. 

I guess my question would be...why NOT hot pack it? Lazy? Don't want to take the time to reheat it?  The vacuum seal is a safety indicator to consumers. When they hear that pfft, they know the bottle hasn't been opened and tampered with.

I've told this story before, but it's been a while and hopefully it will reach some new eyes-
 
 
Several years ago some guy in Texas was shipping out his sauce to reviewers and getting some internet sales based on these reviewer's videos and posts.  The guy was NOT licensed, and even after the reviewers learned that, they still had the attitude that "I ate the sauce and I didn't get sick...it must be fine.  Besides, the guy is such a nice fellow, he wouldn't possible sell something that wasn't OK".  Well, turns out the guy was a child abuser, pedofile, domestic abuser...which is neither here not there...until CPS raided the house and there was a toddler covered in feces, a dead cat carcass in the kitchen, rodent and insect infestation, rotten food in the fridge, lots of poop-filled diapers all over the house.....you get the idea.....
 
I trade for and buy lots of sauce from non-professional sauce makers.  I know they are hobby sauces and I'm delighted to try them!  I've had one or two that did a fizzy thing when opened and those got pitched.  People have to acknowledge where the sauce came from and make an educated decision whether they trust the person who made it, or pitch it.  It's when the hobby sauce makers are presenting themselves as a licensed sauce maker that my gears start grinding.... 
 
OK, I'm down off the Soap Box....  sorrry for the rant... 
 
:calm:  (where's the ZEN Emoti~???  :lol:)
 
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salsalady said:
Several years ago some guy in Texas
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this sounds more like an urban legend than a factual tale but any way..
 
I cold bottle my sauce and I give them to people all the time no worries. Honestly I dont think they stay around long enough to go bad and people probably put them in the fridge after opening. Im hoping i can make these for sale without cooking because Im afraid that it will alter the flavors, carmelization and all that. I have not talked directly to my PA yet still trying to track them down but Im hoping for a work around.  Eating a raw pepper is completely different than eating a cooked one. It also makes more when you dont cook the water out, though I suppose it could be added back in during cooking but that still doesnt solve the problem of carmelizing the sugars.  Heres the thing, I have a 3 year old bottle of texas petes under my counter.  Now it was most likely bottled hot but Ive opened and closed that bottle a hundred times since then and its still fine.  Do you keep tabasco in the fridge? i dont. I also dont use it but i wouldnt be afraid to.
 
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Topsmoke said:
this sounds more like an urban legend than a factual tale but any way..
 
I cold bottle my sauce and I give them to people all the time no worries. Honestly I dont think they stay around long enough to go bad and people probably put them in the fridge after opening. Im hoping i can make these for sale without cooking because Im afraid that it will alter the flavors, carmelization and all that. I have not talked directly to my PA yet still trying to track them down but Im hoping for a work around.  Eating a raw pepper is completely different than eating a cooked one. It also makes more when you dont cook the water out, though I suppose it could be added back in during cooking but that still doesnt solve the problem of carmelizing the sugars.  Heres the thing, I have a 3 year old bottle of texas petes under my counter.  Now it was most likely bottled hot but Ive opened and closed that bottle a hundred times since then and its still fine.  Do you keep tabasco in the fridge? i dont. I also dont use it but i wouldnt be afraid to.
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Texas Pete and Tobasco were hot packed and PH is acidic enough to keep nasties away for a good amount of time.
They also have a few preservatives most home sauce makers don't use.
 
For your sauces, you taking a lot on your shoulders but I'm hoping you at least tell your people to keep it in the fridge. When I give out uncooked or fresh batches of anything I always make a point of keeping refrigerated. It's not worth the burden of getting even 1 person sick. Remember, bad news travels a lot faster than good. You could go from the guy with the best sauce in town to the guy who made grandpa sit on the toilet all night long.
 
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or you could be both.
 
SmokenFire said:
 
Are these fermented sauces?  What is the pH of the finished sauce? 
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i only ferment for one day. i just tested texas pete and it came in at ph 3.2 (confirm anybody?) my highest is ph 3.6. i have a milwaukee ph 600, not sure if i like it but have nothing to compare it to.
 
 
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salsalady said:
 
Several years ago some guy in Texas was shipping out his sauce to reviewers and getting some internet sales based on these reviewer's videos and posts.  
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Topsmoke said:
this sounds more like an urban legend than a factual tale but any way..
 
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Not Urban Legend.  I can forward a link to the local newspaper clip of the incident.
 
 
 
Topsmoke said:
I only ferment for one day. i just tested texas pete and it came in at ph 3.2 (confirm anybody?) my highest is ph 3.6. i have a milwaukee ph 600, not sure if i like it but have nothing to compare it to.
 
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1 day fermentation doesn't sound like enough to make all the conversions that a fermentation needs to make it safe.  Even kimchee and kraut need at least a couple (3-4 days) at a minimum...  ?
 
 
I haven't tested TexasPete's but 3.2 sounds about right and is a pretty safe area for pH for bottled sauces.  I Think HoyFong ferments for a week before processing and then they have to hold it for 30 days.  LuckyDog knows more about all that as I believe it's a California regulations thing for holding the product to make sure it's safe before releasing  Maybe it's just for the initial process review???... 
 
 
AFAIK....and that will get you to the end of the driveway and back......HoyFong does no hot pack or cook the sauce.  I've seen different blogs and I-net posts.  Some say the sauce is cooked, some say it isn't. 
 
3.6 pH is marginal for most of the sauces I've sent to a PA.  If there are no high risk items, 3.6 can be HFH.  I have a fruity sauce that's 3.6 but doesn't contain any critical items so HFH is fine.  The BBQ which is about 3.2 and contains butter is a HUGE PITA!!!!!  Totally different paramiters because there's butter in the mix. 
 
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FWIW in regards to HoyFong, I've added a good squeeze of honey to a half full bottle and every time I would open it after that it would release pressure and shoot Sriracha everywhere. Was really annoying but never thought much about it. After getting in fermenting foods I realized their sauce must not be cooked.
 
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salsalady said:
1 day fermentation doesn't sound like enough to make all the conversions that a fermentation needs to make it safe.  Even kimchee and kraut need at least a couple (3-4 days) at a minimum...  ?
 
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1 day is not nearly long enough to ferment if the goal is to use the lactic acid produced by fermentation for food safety.  It will start the process of fermentation and perhaps impart a slight touch of tang (if that's what they're going for).  I'd imagine the one day fermented pepper mash is then combined with vinegar or other such acid to reach 3.6.
 
I've no knowledge of the PA process authority or how they go about regulating such things, but I would definitely be interested in their take on a 1 day ferment/cold packed sauce.  
 
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