commercial-kichen Commercial Kitchen on the Cheap

[AJ Drew]

Have a friend who owns a commercial food trailer.  You know the type that sets up at fairs and festivals.  Because it is a trailer, it has an exemption for not having a septic system.  He still needs hot and cold running water, sinks and so on, but he can collect, store, and dispose of grey water later.  He is now selling packaged cookies wholesale to gas stations and is in complete compliance with health code in his county.

Strikes me that if folk live in areas with the same exemptions, a food trailer might be a way for a hot sauce start up to get producing.  Of course I know NOTHING about the actual business.  Just kind of pondering.

 

 

[Lucky Dog Hot Sauce]

Context is important. ajdrew isn't starting a dry cleaning business.

The topic premise is about starting a food business. Ajdrew is on the Internet, obviously, so indeed, I assume he'd like to be able to sell his product across state lines.

I am done with this topic - I think the question has been asked and answered. I'm fascinated by your compulsive need to antagonize others. Thanks so very much for the personal attack too. Really shows your character.

 

[salsalady]

Sheetrock painted with primer and a kitchen/bath paint which is considered "washable".
 
RE- AHJ- a better example is-
 
I'm FDA and WSDA licensed and inspected.  This allows me to sell wholesale in WA state etc.  HOWEVER, if I want to sell RETAIL, such as at a FM, I also have to be County Health District licensed which means they would review the kitchen design, do onsite inspections, do their own water sample tests (even though my water is tested yearly by an independant lab, they would do their own test), all for the bargain price of about $450.   
 
Once again, I'm just trying to point out not everything is FDA, there are different licensing requirements for different operations, and different locations.  As LDHS says, I think ajdrews question has been answered. 

 

[millworkman]

Lets keep this on topic and quit berating each other.  

 

[Weed]

Yeah - interstate - like "selling on the Internet".

Not too many people start a business to sell 100% locally.
 

 
 

Context is important. ajdrew isn't starting a dry cleaning business.

 
Context is suddenly important when the first statement proves to be wholly untrue.
 
Ok.
 
Pointing out that you made something up and tried to put it forth as fact isnt berating or a personal attack. It's the simple truth. You just keep taking it personally.
 
How do you even make a pH sensitive food and get that wrong too?

 

[The Hot Pepper]

Simple...
 
Ask him and stop assuming.
 
ajdrew, do you want to make powders to sell locally, or to put in your online store? (Store in his sig.)
 

 

[Lucky Dog Hot Sauce]

Simple...
 
Ask him and stop assuming.
 
ajdrew, do you want to make powders to sell locally, or to put in your online store? (Store in his sig.)
 

Yeah - silly me for assuming that someone with an online store might sell a product he's talking about making online.


I'm out - the question has been asked and answered. The only person who can help ahdrew with his very specific question is his local AHJ.

/discussion

 

[The Hot Pepper]

Yeah - silly me for assuming that someone with an online store might sell a product he's talking about making online.

 

 
No prob. It's quite common to sell locally and expand later with a new venture. Only ajdrew knows.

 

[Weed]

We all know what they say about assumption.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

We all know what they say about assumption.

 
You realize you just assumed I knew that.

 

[Weed]

 
You realize you just assumed I knew that.

 
Nah I was sure.

 

[AJ Drew]

Hotdog, I want to sell them across state lines which is why I tried and tried to be clear was talking commercial kitchen.  Somebody else brought up cottage industry in their state and the thread went sideways.  You have been instrumental, in other topics, in explaining the many laws on commercial kitchens.  Thank you.  This includes what I am going to say to Salsa Lady on the subject, but she was the post that made it click.

Salsa Lady, one of your posts made something click in my mind.  I was thinking a person gets a commercial kitchen inspected and registered, then they have a commercial kitchen.  Until one of your comments, I thought it was a one size fits all sort of thing.  Talked to my county extension office via a person that is department of agriculture.  He is not the authority but they have a service to walk a person threw the steps.  Here is what I found out (thanks to you).

For the one produce: Dried powders, this will work:

Free standing building no more than 200 feet from bathrooms.
Hot water tank for washing dishes at certain temps.
County water supply or other approved, but county is easy.
Concrete floor painted with two part epoxy.
Walls painted correctly, can be drywall but not osb.
Free standing mop sink can be cheap ass plastic
Free standing dish sink, should be stainless.
Free standing stainless tables / counters for work space.

I was thinking I would need septic, stove, oven, and all the amenities of a commercial kitchen.  All I really need is a clean room.  That and everything is a nobrainer because you buy it at a commercial kitchen place and they advise what is approved. 

On hot sauces, am screwing around with a friend but growing is my love.  He is a chef, runs a catering business.  My only interest there is guy time.  If we ever do something formal, it will be I grow it he makes it.  Openly refering to it as Farmer n Chef but we jokingly call it Black and Tan cause I am white, he is black, and we like trying to make black and tans without messing up the way one floats on the other.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

There you go. You gonna build it?

 

[AJ Drew]

Hot Pepper - In the original post, was very clear I was pondering alternatives to traditional commercial kitchens.  I have no clue why this thread has gone south the way the other one did.  Just kind of wanted to apologize for the thread grief.  Thanks to Salsa Lady, I figured out what I wanted to figure out.  But also got an idea to keep the clash from happening again and again.

How bout a subforum for cottage industry discussions?  Many of the states have fantastic exemptions for people to get started.  Maybe a commercial kitchen and interstate commerce is in a persons future, maybe it is not.  But I think there are probably more cottage industry chefs in here than there are commercial ones.
 
At any point, if the commercial forum moderator decides folk are talking cottage industry, s/he could move the thread to the right place and end any sort of conflict.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

Uh you just mentioned a building and I asked if you're gonna build it because you said you got the info you needed and someone to talk you through the process.
 
Yes you also mentioned a food trailer.
 
I am not confused. Maybe you can be clearer. If I move this every time you say cottage or commercial or trailer or building I'll be playing ping pong with the post.

 

[Weed]

how the fuck can you talk about ALTERNATIVE then say some shit about it went sideways to "cottage law"?
 
wtf do you think youre talking about?

 

[AJ Drew]

There you go. You gonna build it?

I was typing my response before you posted the question.  On building, my main interest is growing.  The idea of making powders is to let me grow more.  If I lease land to expand the grow,I will absolutely build a place to make powders because I will need to.

On the whole commercial vs cottage, I so did not bring up cottage industry here.  I responded to someone else.  Is why I thought to suggest a separate forum and make the two topics off limits in each.  You dont even have to move things.  Just get the commercial folk used to telling people cottage industry is off limits in this forum, go to the other forum.

Love the place, feel part of it, and figured i would throw two cents into the discussion.  Obviously you know best.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

The word cottage seems to upset you. It is commercial, it is commerce right? You are doing business with restrictions. If that is not the avenue for you so be it. Don't get so offended by the suggestion. 

 

[AJ Drew]

how the f**k can you talk about ALTERNATIVE then say some shit about it went sideways to "cottage law"?
 
wtf do you think youre talking about?

Well Heckle, while certainly selling locally under cottage industry laws is one alternative to building a full blown commercial kitchen there are other alternatives to a full blown commercial kitchen which can be used to produce a commercial product.  With Salsa Lady mentioning that she does not have septic in her commercial kitchen I started to realize the alternatives, talked to someone in the state and learned there are many, many, many alternatives. 

For folk thinking about starting up, here are some of the great ones I found:

Copacking - I think this is Hotdogs approach.  You create your initial recipies at home in your own kitchen an then have someone else produce them in a commercial kitchen.

Commercial Light - This is Salsa Ladies approach.  In her case, the limitation is that only family members can work there cause there is no restroom.

Commercial Super Light - What I am thinking.  Not even a stove or oven.

Church Kitchens - If you are in good with your church and they have an approved kitchen (most are) then chances are they will rent it to you for cheap.

University / Extension Office - Ours has commercial kitchens which they rent out for dirt cheap.

Food Trailer - You can buy the things dirt cheap.  I know some items can be produced commercially there cause I know someone who is doing it.

So many wonderful alternatives to paying a fortune to build a commercial kitchen.  All of which are commercial alternatives that are not cottage industry.  But yes, staying within your state and selling under cottage industry laws is also an alternative.

The word cottage seems to upset you. It's is commercial, it is commerce right? You are doing business with restrictions. If that is not the avenue for you so be it. Don't get so offended by the suggestion. 

Not at all offended by the term cottage industry.  But, I do think I should start saying 'interstate commerce' to be more clear.  Great suggestion.  I apologize for my shorthand.
On doing business with restrictions, we all are.  But while still a member of the Kentucky Proud program I no longer do farmers markets or value added (cooked) products.  I can not load, unload, load and unload two times a week to participate at farmers markets this year.  Nor can I stand over a stove and thicken jams all night long like I used to.

If I do go the cut down commercial kitchen route, will probably open a mostly unattended farm store and do those things again as I get better at walking.  Have an appointment with VA business mentor guy, there might be grants to help with hand rails and things.  Maybe someone to talk to in vocational rehab that can give me ideas on how to design things to make things more managable.  No clue till I ask.

So many great people and services out there to help folk like me figure things out.  Seriously lacking the smarts of people like Salsalady who I think did it on her own.

 

[Weed]

The laws that will allow you to produce potentially non-hazardous foods, like hot sauces, are cottage laws. AFAIK, there are no cottage laws that will allow you to produce potentially hazardous foods like things with eggs in them in any state. But I could be wrong.
 
Even a home kitchen used to produce goods for sale is technically a commercial kitchen when thats the purpose for which its being used.
 
For like the 4th time, the main difference between a "home, trailer, church" and fully commercial kitchen is whether or not it can produce potentially hazardous food or not. This varies from state to state depending on the laws. Any state with cottage laws will NOT let you make potentially hazardous foods in anything other than a full blown commercial kitchen.

They are all commercial kitchens once you start making things to sell.

 

[AJ Drew]

Heckle said: "The laws that will allow you to produce potentially non-hazardous foods, like hot sauces, are cottage laws."

I think Luckydog would completely disagree with that statement.  I believe he feels there are no cottage industry laws allowing hot sauce.  I think most states forbid acidified foods in their cottage laws like Salsa Lady's state and  like Luckydog says and that means most hot sauces are out.  I think the same is true of bbq sauces and sauces in general.  So I am going with in general, your statement is backwards.  Hot sauces are completely out of cottage law realm in most states.
 
Heckle said: "there are no cottage laws that will allow you to produce potentially hazardous foods like things with eggs in them in any state."

I think Salsa Lady already disagreed with that by posting cottage industry laws for her state which included baked goods.  I know for a fact that my state includes eggs themselves in cottage industry laws.  Also, cookies and cakes are certainly part of the cottage industry laws here in KY.  In fact, baked goods are the easiest to be approved for.  Now acidified foods, canned goods, and the likes; those take classes and tests.

On your insistence that the term 'commercial kitchen' means any kitchen used to make anything that is sold, OK.  In the future I will remember not to use shorthand.  I will say something more like "Kitchen certified for interstate commerce" so that nobody misunderstands my use of the term 'commercial kitchen' to think I meant your home kitchen.

Incidentally, the rules here use the terms "commercial kitchen" for topics outside the cottage industry and "farm kitchen" for cottage industry laws.  Makes it a whole lot easier to discuss things.

Anyway, here is the thing.  Lucky Dog n Salsa Lady are the best informed because they are doing it.  So I kind of look up to them and give their opinions extra points.  Salsa Lady a few more points in this conversation cause she put links to the laws that dissagree with what you just said about baked goods.  Nothing disrespecting you at all in any of this.  I just figure they do it, so they probably know better than us.

That and I have a very black and white mind.  Salsa Lady turned me on to the grey area of exemptions.  I know it sounds weird, but my mind is blown.  I really thought the law was the law and that is the law.  Had no clue there were exemptions.