commercial-kichen Commercial Kitchen on the Cheap

Have a friend who owns a commercial food trailer.  You know the type that sets up at fairs and festivals.  Because it is a trailer, it has an exemption for not having a septic system.  He still needs hot and cold running water, sinks and so on, but he can collect, store, and dispose of grey water later.  He is now selling packaged cookies wholesale to gas stations and is in complete compliance with health code in his county.

Strikes me that if folk live in areas with the same exemptions, a food trailer might be a way for a hot sauce start up to get producing.  Of course I know NOTHING about the actual business.  Just kind of pondering.

 
 
Here if you get your home kitchen inspected you can produce food and be in compliance with the county.
 
There are some caveats...no pets, no kids in the kitchen during production, etc.
 
in WA, the license is for a specific location, if you change locations, you have to get relicensed.  Don't think they would allow a mobile kitchen, but if it was stationary at one location....might be an option~
 
It's all up to the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction)
 
salsalady said:
in WA, the license is for a specific location, if you change locations, you have to get relicensed.  Don't think they would allow a mobile kitchen, but if it was stationary at one location....might be an option~
 
It's all up to the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction)
 
Part 9: Alternative Food Facilities

Subpart A - Mobile Food Units
 
 
http://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/Pubs/332-033.pdf
 
"Washington adopted the 2009 FDA Food Code, with some modifications."
 
Like most states.

 

sorry for all the editing, WA's pdf sucks.
 
Here in CA that would never fly.

Hot sauce is not part of our cottage laws. To my knowledge no state allows for shelf stable acidified in a home kitchen unless it's a dedicated/isolated space.

With a separate building, sure.

As for the OP and the food truck, even if you could legally produce in one, logistically it would be very difficult. It's not set up as a production line.

Ingredient preparation, bottling, capping, labeling - all requires space. Food trucks are pretty cramped.

It depends on scale as well of course, but this seems like a very difficult place to manufacture hot sauce.

Legally I doubt CA would certify that as a commercial kitchen suitable for production unless it was anchored to a single street address. And even then I'm skeptical they'd allow it to be used for that purpose. Slingin burgers or tacos is one thing - making a shelf-stable product is a whole other animal. Plus no running water to wash hands or clean utensils is a big red flag.

But not sure of your state's laws so can't comment specifically about legality for you. I can say hat I would never want to work in cramped quarters with such little surface area.
 
Lucky Dog, you seem to be almost stuck on cottage industry laws.  I was discussing mobile kitchens which comply with health code.  Heckle posted a link to the actual laws governing such industry in his state.  Not cottage industry laws, full blown commercial laws.  Most states have major exemption to such laws.  As an example, the Kentucky Highlander Renaissance Festival has a complete commercial kitchen, seating for hundreds of patrons, and no septic system.  They rely entirely on porta potties.  In most states, if a resturante has seating for more than a couple people you must have restrooms.  In several states, for a commercial kitchen to even exist you must have rest rooms.  So even permanent facilities are granted exemptions.  Incidentally, they operate a catering business, host weddings, and have other events year round.  Nothing fly by night at all.  And let me tell you that is one huge and sparkling facility.

Now my friend who is now making cookies and selling them wholesale is not a part of Kentucky Proud (our cottage industry program) at all.  The first give away is that he sells wholesale to gas stations.  The cottage laws absolutely do not allow wholesale.  He uses his commercial food trailer and kitchen to bake, package, and then sell his cookies to the public.  After speaking to health officials, he was able to do the same via gas stations and is now working on getting into Krogers.  Nothing fly by night.  Nothing cottage about it.  Just a much more affordable alternative to a permanent commercial kitchen.  Seems like the laws posted by Heckle would allow for the same thing in WA.

In so far as CA laws, I think the best way to find out would be to walk around a fair.  If you see a funnel cake booth, then they allow mobile commercial kitchens to produce.  Seems like just about every state fair has one.  Not that this is the same as a shelf stable food or an acidified food, but that kind of brings me back to the whole cottage industry thing you said.
 
Lucky Dog Hot Sauce said:
To my knowledge no state allows for shelf stable acidified in a home kitchen unless it's a dedicated/isolated space.
Not sure why you are hung on this.  I have in another conversation given you links to the state of Kentucky laws concerning cottage industry / home kitchen laws.  In fact, there are two categories.  Acidified foods is one of the two categories.  In fact, I am fairly sure virtually every state allows shelf stable acidified foods in its cottage industry laws.

Now let me be clear, I am NOT talking about crossing statehttp://thehotpepper.com/topic/56065-commercial-kitchen-on-the-cheap/lines or selling outside of the acceptable venues.  Just saying that you are incorrect in believing acidified foods in home kitchens are not part of the cottage industry laws of many states.

In Kentucky, acidified foods are certainly part of the cottage industry / home based laws.

"Certified home-based microprocessors that meet further requirements of the regulation may grow, harvest and process acid foods, formulated acid food products, acidified food products and low-acid canned foods." - Cabinet for Health
 
Anyway, the reason I even mentioned it is because I am looking into doing powders.  They require a commercial kitchen to prepare.  No problem building a free standing commercial kitchen except that one of our rules says you need septic removal.  With clay under everything, the cost of putting in new septic is more than the cost of a simple building due to the excavation of the clay and replacement with something that will let the lateral lines work.  I can not tie into the home septic because there is no clear route.  Looking into exemptions, friend said I could use his food trailer.  I don't want to go there for all the reasons you listed.  Not enough damn room.

So I am going round about and trying to get an exemption.  They want me to build on to the house, but I'd rather not have my home inspected.  That and frankly, chances would be good my kids would leave something in there they shouldnt... like a chicken.
 
Dept of Health regulates restaurants and food carts.  My license is through the Dept of Agriculture.  Different AHJ's. 
 
Cookies are considered "low risk" foods and have been allowed as cottage industry goods for decades.  From the WA state Cottage Industry Rules-
 
ALLOWED ITEMS-
  • Baked good products that are cooked in an oven are allowed, including:
  • Loaf breads, rolls, biscuits, quick breads and muffins;
  • Cakes including celebration cakes such as birthday, anniversary, and wedding cakes
    Sweet breads made with fresh fruit or vegetables are allowed as long as the fruit or vegetables are incorporated into the batter and oven-baked.
  • All frostings or glazes must have a cook step or be made with ingredients (such as a large amount of sugar) that when combined are stable at room temperature and won’t spoil.

[*]Pastries and scones
[*]Donuts or other fried products are not allowed.
[*]Cookies and bars
[*]Crackers
[*]Cereals, trail mixes and granola;
[*]Candies and confections that are cooked in an oven
[*]Pies, except custard style pies, pies with fresh fruit that are unbaked or pies that require refrigeration after baking;
[*]Nuts and nut mixes; and
[*]Snack mixes
  • Standardized jams, jellies, preserves and fruit butters as identified under 21 C.F.R 150.
  • Recombining of packaging of dry herbs, seasoning and mixtures that are obtained from approve sources.
  • Including bread mixes, soup mixes and dip mixes.
  • Vinegar and flavored vinegars
 
Prohibited Products (WAC 16-149-130) This is not all inclusive but provides most of the types of prohibited cottage food products.
 
  • This section lists unacceptable cottage food products. Although not inclusive, it lists most types of unapproved cottage food products:
    Fresh or dried meat or meat products including jerky;
  • Fresh or dried poultry or poultry products;
  • Canned fruits, vegetables, vegetable butters, salsas, etc.;
  • Fish or shellfish products;
  • Canned pickled products such as corn relish, pickles, sauerkraut;
  • Raw seed sprouts;
  • Bakery goods which require any type of refrigeration such as cream, custard or meringue pies and cakes or pastries with cream or cream cheese fillings, fresh fruit fillings or garnishes, glazes or frostings with low sugar content, cream, or uncooked eggs;
  • Tempered or molded chocolate or chocolate type products;
  • Milk and dairy products including hard, soft and cottage cheeses and yogurt;
  • Cut fresh fruits or vegetables;
  • Food products made from cut fresh fruits or vegetables;
  • Food products made with cooked vegetable products;
  • Garlic in oil mixtures;
  • Juices made from fresh fruits or vegetables;
  • Ice or ice products;
  • Barbeque sauces, ketchups, or mustards;
  • Focaccia-style breads with vegetables or cheeses.

 
 
 
Your state might be different, but in WA state, most of my hot sauces would not be allowed, all of Lucky Dog's would not be allowed, and I'm guessing most other peoples hot sauces would not be allowed.  Dried pepper powders would not be allowed under cottage industry laws.
 
 
 
Regarding ajdrew's building dilema-
You may be able to get a septic exemption to install a grey water only system.  When we installed the kitchen, we installed a new septic system.  We couldn't access the domestic tank, and we just thought it would be good to have if we ever had to put a trailer out there for aging parents or something.   
 
My kitchen is in a separate building without a bathroom.  This limits who can use the kitchen.  Basically, since I can use my house bathroom, only family members can work in the kitchen.  If someone else wanted to rent the kitchen, I would have to have some type of bathroom other than our family bathroom available for them.  We do have a toilet right inside the back door, so if the back hall could be closed off from the rest of the house, that would qualify.  Or I could have a porta-potty on-site (yea...not going there...but it would work...)
 
 
the conditions for having a processing kitchen in a house are-
has to have it's own outside entrance. 
must be able to be closed off from the rest of the house
 
And the usual-
cleanable surfaces
screened windows
tested water supply
sinks/refrigeration as needed for the operation. 
 
 
I don't think they inspect the rest of the house unless the place looks like a dump with obvious risk factors.  If the place is clean and tidy, they will inspect the kitchen/processing area, make sure no pests can get in, it's of good construction, etc., off you go.  But that would be a question to ask your AHJ. 
.
 
Heckle said:
 


"Washington adopted the 2009 FDA Food Code, with some modifications."
 
Like most states.


 
 
Nobody notices. Nobody cares.
------------------------------------
 
You can do canning in an inspected home kitchen. It's probably cheaper than buying a truck?
 
We had to take all the pickled/canned stuff to a state certified lab to have the pH tested.
 
SalsaLady, no clue why this is drifting to cottage industry laws.  In Kentucky, the cottage industry laws are very clear that you may not sell wholesale.  Friend who is selling cookies to gas stations is not cottage industry at all.  He started with a catering business, moved to a food trailer, and now sells wholesale to gas stations in addition to selling from the trailer.  His trailer is a commercial kitchen where he produces and packages food, all inspected, all above board. 

On inspections, I was so not kidding when I said a kid would wind up bringing a chicken into it.  No way I could have something in or attached to the home.  Hell, this past winter we had a sick goat baby who came inside and went into a crate by the stove.  If I do powders, it is going to be in a completely seperate structure.  Not really a problem if I can get an exemption for the potty.  But now that I think about it, a composting potty is something I have wanted to look into.
 
On jurisdiction, in KY it is very, very, very odd.  There is an umbrella organization called the Cabinet for Health and something or another.  Same umbrella covers things like visitation, custody, childrens protective services.  Let me tell you, the waiting room is always entertaining.
 
Heckle said:
 
Nobody notices. Nobody cares.
Heckle, I noticed, read most of the applicable section and then pointed it out to Lucky Dog while referencing you.  I have no clue why people keep drifting towards cottage / home kitchens.  I am completely lost.  Maybe I am saying it wrong.

BTW: In KY you may not use a home kitchen for commercial purposes outside of the cottage exemptions.  I think it can be attached to your home, but you can have nothing in it except those things for the business.  Did do farmers markets with home canned goods.  I stopped when it became painfully obvious (pun intended) that I could not pack unpack pack and unpack the thing twice a week.  Is why I am looking into selling more things online.  My feet are prity much screwed. 
 
ajdrew said:
 
Heckle, I noticed, read most of the applicable section and then pointed it out to Lucky Dog while referencing you.  I have no clue why people keep drifting towards cottage / home kitchens.  I am completely lost.  Maybe I am saying it wrong.
 
 
I meant about the FDA taking over states rights.
 
Heckle, ye I am a bit put off by the way the federal government gets its way.  Sorry I missed that in your post.  I do get grumpy at the federal government trumping states rights.  But gotta admit a unified health code for interstate sales makes sense.  Currently, you walk into a grocery store and the products might not meet the regulations for manufacture in your state as long as they meet the rules in the state they were made.  Just kind of odd.
 
ajdrew said:
Strikes me that if folk live in areas with the same exemptions, a food trailer might be a way for a hot sauce start up to get producing.  Of course I know NOTHING about the actual business.  Just kind of pondering.

 
This original post is why we keep drifting to cottage industry discussion.  Based on our (not complete) knowledge of licensing, making and selling hot sauce, a food truck would not be a viable option unless it was stationed in one place, licensed to one business. 
 
I was just trying to say/show why a cookie business could work out of a trailer, but a hot sauce most likely wouldn't.  Others brought in the home Kitchen licensing and cottage industry topics.  In the end, it comes down to your AHJ and who/where you want to sell.
 
As I said, it's an option.
 
 
 
Heckle said:
 
Nobody notices. Nobody cares.

------------------------------------
 
You can do canning in an inspected home kitchen. It's probably cheaper than buying a truck?
 
We had to take all the pickled/canned stuff to a state certified lab to have the pH tested.
 
It's all up to your AHJ. 
 
and I noticed, just didn't think the info in the link was relevant to the current topic of using a food truck as a processing kitchen.
 
 
 
Lucky Dog, you seem to be almost stuck on cottage industry laws. 
 
Not sure why you are hung on this.
 
 I was responding to "heckle".  He brought up the cottage industry laws by saying
 
Here if you get your home kitchen inspected you can produce food and be in compliance with the county.
 
There are some caveats...no pets, no kids in the kitchen during production, etc.
 
Heckle - Another caveat might be that you usually can't make an acidified pH controlled product such as hot sauce in one. 
 
AJ - As to "going round about and trying to get an exemption", I wish you the best of luck with that. As SL adeptly illustrated in her post, I do not think it will be possible for the kinds of things that you want to produce. They typically require a fixed address, with insurance specifying that address, etc. 
 
That said, and not to rehash the "cottage laws" discussion, I think the verbiage you're referring to above is in regard to things like sour kraut and pickles - not hot sauce. Hot sauce has it's own special hell of regulations. Please contact your local AHJ and ask them about what you want to do with either sauce or powders and let us know what they say. I think we would all be best served by having accurate information.  
 
I am hoping that I am wrong, and I sincerely hope you find an alternative that's less costly. Good luck. :cheers:

FYI, this is a good quick read, and helps to further illustrate why all acidified foods aren't equal in the eyes of the AHJ: 
 
From the FDA: 
 
 
For commercial products brought into interstate commerce, the requirements for registration, manufacturing, and process filing of “low-acid canned foods (LACF) and acidified foods (AF) in hermetically sealed containers” are issued and codified in Title 21, Code of Federal Regulations, Parts 108, 113 and 114.
Although the FDA does not approve, license, or issue permits for finished food products shipped in interstate U.S. commerce, all commercial processors of LACF and AF are required to register their establishments and file processing information for all such products with the FDA. Special forms are required for this, which are available from:
Food and Drug Administration
LACF Registration Coordinator (HFS-618)
200 C St. SW, Washington, D.C. 20204

Commercial products which fall into this category need to be cooked and packed by an operation that was also registered with the FDA, under the supervision of a properly trained and certified person. 
 
Ps - if anyone wants to turn this into a philosophical deconstruction of why the FDA has any say on state laws, this probably isn't the forum for it. Personally I think (within reason) we should return to the days of Caveat Emptor. For example, if Ajdrew wants to make pepper powder in a trailer, and hot sauce in his bathtub, so long as he gives full disclosure when selling it then I should be able to buy what he made and consume it at my own risk and the gov't should have fock-all to say about it at any level. 
 
But that's more of a thought experiment. Because like it or don't, the FDA does tend to have power over the states. And the states have power over who gets permits to produce or sell what food things and what generally constitutes compliance with both state & federal law. And it is what it is. 
 
 
Including what we want to have as laws or what should be laws in a discussion about making a food product under existing laws seems kind of unecessary.  
 
OP asked a question. I did my best to answer. And again - I'm not an attorney, an AHJ or a state or federal representative - the best answer for ajdrew will be from the horse's mouth.  
 
SalsaLady, wait a minute.  I think I am onto something you are saying that I did not get before.  I am looking at it as a commercial kitchen is needed to make commercial food.  You are saying there are different commercial kitchens, some ok for one food, some ok for other food.  Yes? 

So what is a cleanable surface?  I am good with counter and work space, plan stainless steel.  Good on floor, plan hard tile on top of concrete.  But walls give me pause.  The kitchen I am familure with has painted concrete block walls.  I was thinking stick construction but can not imagine dry wall would fly.  Does it.

Luckydog, no real desire to make hot sauce.  Just throwing the idea out there for folk.  My love is growing things.  Would like to grow more but do not want to put the money into leasing property and growing larger if I do not have either established buyers or something to do with the fresh product.  Was thinking powders.  Might think about mash.  Some way of extending the life of the produce beyond the few days I currently have to get it to the buyer.

 

BTW: On the acidified foods in the Kentucky proud program.  If you have the permit for that variety, taken the classes, passed your tests,paid your fees then yes you may produce hot sauce.  However, and this is a huge however, your recipe and method must be approved by the University of Kentucky via the extension office. 
 
From the FDA: 
 
For commercial products brought into interstate commerce
 
 
keyword being interstate
 
 
Heckle - Another caveat might be that you usually can't make an acidified pH controlled product such as hot sauce in one.
 
FDA-
 
"Potentially hazardous food" does not include:
  1. (i) An air-cooled hard-boiled egg with shell intact;
  2. (ii) A food with an aw value of 0.85 or less;
  3. (iii) A food with a pH level of 4.6 or below when measured at 24 °C (75 °F)
Potentially non-hazardous foods can be prepared in a home kitchen. The ag dept inspects.
 
The state makes you submit the pH testing by a certified state approved lab to comply with FDA pH <4.6.
 
Potentially hazardous foods cant be made in an inspected home kitchen. Has to be a "commercial kitchen".
 
In my state.

ajdrew said:
SalsaLady, wait a minute.  I think I am onto something you are saying that I did not get before.  I am looking at it as a commercial kitchen is needed to make commercial food.  You are saying there are different commercial kitchens, some ok for one food, some ok for other food.  Yes? 

So what is a cleanable surface?  I am good with counter and work space, plan stainless steel.  Good on floor, plan hard tile on top of concrete.  But walls give me pause.  The kitchen I am familure with has painted concrete block walls.  I was thinking stick construction but can not imagine dry wall would fly.  Does it.

Luckydog, no real desire to make hot sauce.  Just throwing the idea out there for folk.  My love is growing things.  Would like to grow more but do not want to put the money into leasing property and growing larger if I do not have either established buyers or something to do with the fresh product.  Was thinking powders.  Might think about mash.  Some way of extending the life of the produce beyond the few days I currently have to get it to the buyer.

 

BTW: On the acidified foods in the Kentucky proud program.  If you have the permit for that variety, taken the classes, passed your tests,paid your fees then yes you may produce hot sauce.  However, and this is a huge however, your recipe and method must be approved by the University of Kentucky via the extension office. 
 
A cleanable surface is non-porous. Like your standard home counter top.
 
IIRC we also had to submit recipes to ag dept. It's not a big deal.
 
It's not a difference between commercial food and non, its 'potentially hazardous' and 'potentially non hazardous' as FDA defines, state enforces.
 
Acidified canning mostly is PotNonHaz while non acidified canning is PotHaz.
 
Intrastate commerce doesnt have to meet FDA labeling guidelines. Interstate does.
 
In reality there arent really different entities any more. The FDA is the entity and AG Depts are more like their police.
 
Your state may vary slightly, like the canning class my state doesnt require. But mostly its top down from FDA.

Then there is this
 
The FDA Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA), the most sweeping reform of our food safety laws in more than 70 years, was signed into law by President Obama on January 4, 2011. It aims to ensure the U.S. food supply is safe by shifting the focus from responding to contamination to preventing it.
 
http://www.fda.gov/food/guidanceregulation/fsma/default.htm
 
Which I am not going to even go into other than to say that the people who think there is more than one "AHJ" are wrong. Unless the other AHJ is the DeptHomelandSecurity.

ajdrew said:
So what is a cleanable surface?  I am good with counter and work space, plan stainless steel.  Good on floor, plan hard tile on top of concrete.  But walls give me pause.  The kitchen I am familure with has painted concrete block walls.  I was thinking stick construction but can not imagine dry wall would fly.  Does it.
 
Sorry, I only answered this in part.
 
Drywall cant be cleaned.
 
The rules vary depending commercial or non and somewhat by state. For a home kitchen painted walls, linoleum floor, non porous counter top or equivalents etc.
 
Commercial rules tend to be a lot more specific.
 
Heckle said:
 
keyword being interstate
Yeah - interstate - like "selling on the Internet". :doh:

Not too many people start a business to sell 100% locally.

Let's say andrew wanted to sell a bag of his pepper powders or hot sauce to another member of THP in the marketplace....did it happen on the Internet?

Yep - that's interstate.
 
Lucky Dog Hot Sauce said:
Yeah - interstate - like "selling on the Internet". :doh:

Not too many people start a business to sell 100% locally.

Let's say andrew wanted to sell a bag of his pepper powders or hot sauce to another member of THP in the marketplace....did it happen on the Internet?

Yep - that's interstate.
 
 
I'm amazed by the way you put 2 and 2 together to get 5.
Lots of business start as intrastate.
McDonalds.

It must be nice to be able to just make something up in your head like
 
Not too many people start a business to sell 100% locally.
 
 
then count it as fact.
 
"
Which I am not going to even go into other than to say that the people who think there is more than one "AHJ" are wrong. Unless the other AHJ is the DeptHomelandSecurity. "
 
There ARE more than one AHJ!  For years my AHJ was Washington State Department of Agriculture and I sold product intrastate, interstate and international.  I was NOT FDA registered and I was completely legal.  I was not required to get FDA registered or be BPCS-certified until the BBQ sauce came on line.
 
 
 
 
Cleanable Surface means walls painted with a kitchen/bath type paint.  Sheetrock is fine.
 
The fastest growing sector for freelance businesses in 2011 included auto repair shops, beauty salons and dry cleaners

I wonder how many of those are interstate.
 
None. Most new businesses are in fact, intrastate. Not interstate.

salsalady said:
"
Which I am not going to even go into other than to say that the people who think there is more than one "AHJ" are wrong. Unless the other AHJ is the DeptHomelandSecurity. "
 
There ARE more than one AHJ!  For years my AHJ was Washington State Department of Agriculture and I sold product intrastate, interstate and international.  I was NOT FDA registered and I was completely legal.  I was not required to get FDA registered or be BPCS-certified until the BBQ sauce came on line.
 
 
 
 
Cleanable Surface means walls painted with a kitchen/bath type paint.  Sheetrock is fine.
 
 
I hope you mean painted or coated with something sheetrock?
 
You started by selling salsa locally? Or?
 
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