fermenting Dead Ferment?

[FlaccidJohn]

Hey guys. I'm not new to food, and I know how fermentation works (I have several wine and mead recipes that are wonderful). But I am new to hot sauce and lactic fermentation. So lets see how big of an idiot I am.
 
I started my first attempt four days ago. My mash came out to about a liter. As I mentioned, I brew so I know how to sterilize and have all of the proper equipment. I collected whey from some yogurt and added about a tablespoon to the mash.
So far, no bubbles. Not a one. My brewers instinct tells me its dead. But lactic bacteria is quite different than yeast, so I want to be sure.
 
 
Also, I read somewhere that if you have an anaerobic environment, you are better of not using a starter and letting it go naturally. It supposedly has a better flavor and ferments more thoroughly because a starter forces it to skip steps. What do you think? If I don't have to use a starter, I'd rather not.
 
 
Don't ask for the recipe, because I spilled mash on it and can't remember the site.

 

[RocketMan]

Just let it keep on keeping on. There have been plenty of times that i thought on wasn't doing anything and then the mash rises and you know it's doing it's thing. LAB are not as aggressive as yeast are so while your brewing talents are going to do you a lot of good, don't let them fool you into pitching out a good ferment. Best thing to do is put it away out of sight and mind and set a reminder to let you know when to processes it.
 
Cheers

 

[Chili Monsta]

I agree with RM...as I've had the same "slow in the beginning" experience many times.
Just be patient and let mother nature do her thing.
 
And BTW...I'm sorta confused about your info regarding the use of a starter. A successful vegetable fermentation requires an anaerobic environment, all any starter does(commercial, whey,sourdough), is front load that environment with additional lactic acid bacteria. LAB is already present on the vegetables themselves.....and sometimes they could use an assist to gain ground on the undesirable bacteria that lead to spoilage.(especially in warm weather)
 
As for the taste issue, some folks like the sour flavor and unique fragrance  that results from LAB fermentation whereas do not.
I regularly ferment both with and without the addition of whey...and IMO the difference is only marginally delectable if at all.
And if all you used was 1 TBS for a liter...that is far from being excessive. Most vegetable recipes would recommend 4 or more TBS for a ferment of that volume.
Not knowing your ingredients, I might suggest the possibility that the ferment could have an insufficient amount of carbs for the LAB to consume and therefore would result in less co2.....If the little varmints aren't eating much...then they aren't generating much Bi-product either.(ie, co2 and lactic acid)
Just wait it out....My guess is all is well..
Cm

 

[FarmerJones]

Just let it keep on keeping on. There have been plenty of times that i thought on wasn't doing anything and then the mash rises and you know it's doing it's thing. LAB are not as aggressive as yeast are so while your brewing talents are going to do you a lot of good, don't let them fool you into pitching out a good ferment. Best thing to do is put it away out of sight and mind and set a reminder to let you know when to processes it.
 
Cheers

I'm having a similar problem. This is my 2nd year fermenting for hot sauce. Last year I played with yeast starters in half my sauces and found the flavor less desirable. It seemed to cook really fast and bottom out. My pepper mashes were bubbling on 3rd day last year though w/o starter. Seemed a little quick. This year I used less sugary vegs for my first batch. I'm going for a cleaner taste and thinner consistency. I left out everything except green onions & garlic. Last year the carrots helped.
 
Also, this year I shredded my mash in a blender instead of coarse chop. Think I'll be ok? So far no bubbles. I got some separation liq/solid, but no fermenting as far as I can tell.
I used Deer Park water & 2 tablespoons Sea salt. My mash covered 40% of a quart. I filled water to top, leaving an inch of head room. I left open for first 2 days. Lidded on 3rd. When I stirred and lidded it on the 3rd day, I added coarse sea salt to top after stirring. The previous 2 tablespoons were blended with mash at beginning. 
 
Ingredients: 5 orange habs, 20 or so mix of dragon cayenne & tabasco, 10 pequin, 3 hot cherry, 3 sweet overripe cherry. Half head garlic, peppercorn, cumin, green onions. 

 

[Chili Monsta]

Farmer...IMO.....and that of the general veggie fermenting crowd...you've got to supply the ferment with enough carbs-starches-sugar to feed them...that how the LAB creates co2 and lactic acid...which is the preservative created by the process.
The "bubbling" action is quite aggressive at the outset...but diminishes after a couple weeks. However,the fermentation process (creation of lactic acid ) continues at a slower and can be directly affected by temperature. I have 2-3 year old ferments that continue to mature in my fridge. ....and, based upon my personal preferences, make some equisite sauce.
I'm somewhat uncomfortable with your technique...which seems to be a combination of an open crock method and then followed by sealing the ferment to block out o2.
After 2-3 days of open crock...depending upon the salt level.....and if ingredients were totally submerged in the brine, the spoilage bacteria could already have gained a controlling foothold, and challenge a successful ferment.
CM
 
 
 
Patience....

 

[FarmerJones]

Farmer...IMO.....and that of the general veggie fermenting crowd...you've got to supply the ferment with enough carbs-starches-sugar to feed them...that how the LAB creates co2 and lactic acid...which is the preservative created by the process.
The "bubbling" action is quite aggressive at the outset...but diminishes after a couple weeks. However,the fermentation process (creation of lactic acid ) continues at a slower and can be directly affected by temperature. I have 2-3 year old ferments that continue to mature in my fridge. ....and, based upon my personal preferences, make some equisite sauce.
I'm somewhat uncomfortable with your technique...which seems to be a combination of an open crock method and then followed by sealing the ferment to block out o2.
After 2-3 days of open crock...depending upon the salt level.....and if ingredients were totally submerged in the brine, the spoilage bacteria could already have gained a controlling foothold, and challenge a successful ferment.
CM
 
 
 
Patience....

That's good advice, thank you so much! I'm a complete rookie when it comes to this. I have about 5 quarts that I keep going in the fridge too. They did much better, as you said & I assume, because they had more sugar to work with. I jus felt that I'd be okay because I broke the components down (mash) to smaller pieces to compensate for lack of extra sugar. Perhaps I should grab some unrefined raw sugar and throw a tablespoon in?
I'm not gonna give up on it. I will post a pic & update next week.

 

[Chili Monsta]

FJ...
The carbs don't have to be sugar...you can use high carb foods like carrots, fruits(mango...pineapple....)..honey...agave nectar...
The cooler temps just slows the process...
Check out some fermenting web sites....there's a bunch of info out there...and yes....don't give up.
CM

 

[RocketMan]

Really great conversation going on here!
 
One other thing to watch for, if your ferment is slow starting, is whether any of the ingredients you used have natural anti-microbial properties. Some common ingredients in sauces do like Garlic and Honey. It doesn't mean that it's going to stop the fermentation, I did an almost pure garlic ferment last year, I'll see if I can find and link to it, and it fermented just fine but it was a slow one and I used extra starter to boost it up. 
 
Edit: here's the link:  http://thehotpepper.com/topic/42012-rocketmans-theriac/#entry883684

 

[FarmerJones]

FJ...
The carbs don't have to be sugar...you can use high carb foods like carrots, fruits(mango...pineapple....)..honey...agave nectar...
The cooler temps just slows the process...
Check out some fermenting web sites....there's a bunch of info out there...and yes....don't give up.
CM

Okay so I'm in day 4, no CO2. I may have too few carbs. Should I chop up an orange and add? I was going to add that after the ferment to preserve sweetness. Should I go ahead and add now?

Really great conversation going on here!
 
One other thing to watch for, if your ferment is slow starting, is whether any of the ingredients you used have natural anti-microbial properties. Some common ingredients in sauces do like Garlic and Honey. It doesn't mean that it's going to stop the fermentation, I did an almost pure garlic ferment last year, I'll see if I can find and link to it, and it fermented just fine but it was a slow one and I used extra starter to boost it up. 
 
Edit: here's the link:  http://thehotpepper.com/topic/42012-rocketmans-theriac/#entry883684

That garlic thread was fantastic! Thanks for sharing. What do you think of me adding an orange to speed up my pepper mash?
I may run to Publix for some Kimchi instead. Or maybe add orange AND kimchi? And should I just add juice of kimchi or some veg too?

 

[Chili Monsta]

If it were me...(and that's my personal criteria) ....i'd let it ride...wait and see. Tinkering with things this far down the road makes me anxious.
But...You could very well still be successful... Worst case is to walk away with lessons learned for the next time..
But that's just me.
CM

 

[RocketMan]

What CM said, let it ride and use your ideas on the next one.

 

[FarmerJones]

I think Deer Park water killed my ferment. 6 days no dice.

 

[FlaccidJohn]

Thanks for the replies. I wasn't getting any notification so I didn't know anyone replied. I should have enough carbs. There are carrots as well as a whole bag of cranberries. There's nothing to indicate anything nasty growing, so I'll let it ride.
 
As far as the comment on starters, I read that people never used to use whey. It's use is fairly recent, and due to people doing open-ferments rather than a sealed one. They added the whey just to give it a kick-start to prevent mold or other nasty stuff from getting a foothold. Should I add more whey? 

 

[FlaccidJohn]

I added more whey and have seen tiny bubbles pressed against the glass, but nothing rising to the top.

 

[Heisenberg]

Whey (from a probiotic yogurt), sourdough hooch, Caldwell's, etc. Its all good.  Some people swear by letting nature take its course, but then its a race between the lactobacillus and the nasties to see who gets a foothold first.  Why tempt fate, use a starter.  And Ive had a few ferments that didnt do much until the week mark....and thats with a starter.

 

[Hardwarehank]

As long as you're not sterilizing your ingredients(always vegetable based), not using chlorinated/boiling water(if utilizing a brine) and have adequate salt(I do it to taste now) there is really no reason to worry about a wild fermentation being taken over by nasties.  
 
Salt is key in keeping bad stuff from gaining hold until the lactobacillus get going.  Then the combination of salt and lactic acid make it a very hostile environment for anything other than what will keep your ferment chugging along.  
 
The main purpose of a culture or starter is to help ensure predictable results in flavor or to ferment sterilized ingredients.  With that said, even ferments started with a culture or starter can fail if not managed correctly.  Your mileage may vary of course but I've done countless sauerkraut and pickle ferments without issue and have 7 pepper mashes going this year - all wild, no issues.  With that said, ferment wild or with a starter, it's your choice, but a starter is in no way necessary.
 
Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz is a great resource and I highly recommend it for reducing some of the voodoo and uncertainty regarding ferments.

 

[SmokenFire]

As long as you're not sterilizing your ingredients(always vegetable based), not using chlorinated/boiling water(if utilizing a brine) and have adequate salt(I do it to taste now) there is really no reason to worry about a wild fermentation being taken over by nasties.  
 
Salt is key in keeping bad stuff from gaining hold until the lactobacillus get going.  Then the combination of salt and lactic acid make it a very hostile environment for anything other than what will keep your ferment chugging along.  
 
The main purpose of a culture or starter is to help ensure predictable results in flavor or to ferment sterilized ingredients.  With that said, even ferments started with a culture or starter can fail if not managed correctly.  Your mileage may vary of course but I've done countless sauerkraut and pickle ferments without issue and have 7 pepper mashes going this year - all wild, no issues.  With that said, ferment wild or with a starter, it's your choice, but a starter is in no way necessary.
 
Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz is a great resource and I highly recommend it for reducing some of the voodoo and uncertainty regarding ferments.

 
Welcome Hank!  I agree with pretty much everything you said save the recommendation for Sandor.  I have 3 of his books and though I love his story and his methods his recipes leave a lot to be desired imo.  I've found much better, more detailed and more reliable information here than in any of Sandor's books.

 

[FlaccidJohn]

As long as you're not sterilizing your ingredients(always vegetable based), not using chlorinated/boiling water(if utilizing a brine) and have adequate salt(I do it to taste now) there is really no reason to worry about a wild fermentation being taken over by nasties.  
 
Salt is key in keeping bad stuff from gaining hold until the lactobacillus get going.  Then the combination of salt and lactic acid make it a very hostile environment for anything other than what will keep your ferment chugging along.  
 
The main purpose of a culture or starter is to help ensure predictable results in flavor or to ferment sterilized ingredients.  With that said, even ferments started with a culture or starter can fail if not managed correctly.  Your mileage may vary of course but I've done countless sauerkraut and pickle ferments without issue and have 7 pepper mashes going this year - all wild, no issues.  With that said, ferment wild or with a starter, it's your choice, but a starter is in no way necessary.
 
Art of Fermentation by Sandor Katz is a great resource and I highly recommend it for reducing some of the voodoo and uncertainty regarding ferments.

Thanks. Still no bubbling. Its been over a week. What's the longest time you've seen a ferment take to start? Its about 70 to 75 in the house so I know the temp isn't inhibiting it

 

[Hardwarehank]

 
Welcome Hank!  I agree with pretty much everything you said save the recommendation for Sandor.  I have 3 of his books and though I love his story and his methods his recipes leave a lot to be desired imo.  I've found much better, more detailed and more reliable information here than in any of Sandor's books.

 
Thanks for the welcome and I completely agree about the recipes in that book and stumbling upon this forum is the main reason I have started to delve into making my own mashes(I still have a lot to learn for sure).  The great thing about fermenting vegetables(peppers in particular) is that as long as you have your fundamentals down the combinations are endless and mostly rewarding.
 

Thanks. Still no bubbling. Its been over a week. What's the longest time you've seen a ferment take to start? Its about 70 to 75 in the house so I know the temp isn't inhibiting it

 
I don't have any experience with whey starter or the use of an airlock like in brewing(I assume that's what you mean by not seeing any bubbles) but I have a gallon jug of jalapeno/apple mash that had been sitting for a couple weeks with very little to no visible evidence of a ferment going on and it would smell about as fresh as the day I prepared it.  I'm one of those who can't help but smell/observe my ferments from time to time to see how things are going.  In my experience as long as you don't have any weird coloration/mold(don't mistake kahm yeast for mold - search images of what it looks if unsure or ask in the forum) and the ferment doesn't smell like death you should be fine with letting it sit.

 

[FarmerJones]

I'm blaming my dead ferment on Deer Park water. It's my first dead ferment. I just started another one with exact same ingredients but chose Fiji water instead. It was fermenting by day 2. Less than 50 hours. I started with Kimchi (which I added on like day 6 with first ferment.) I've now had it going since Tues & it's doing incredibly well...lots of activity. No major sugars like carrots etc...