chinense DNA tests that proved reaper= primo?

Browning said:
My only real thought is, is true, why tell people to post about it while withholding the proof?

I spoke too soon.  Supposedly test #1 just posted a few moments ago
 
 
 
The others are on their way I guess
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Where was this posted?  It's only proof they are similar in heat.
 
sirex said:
So...what does that pic prove? Isn't it just a SHU test?
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Yes, only SHU, nothing more.
 
mpicante said:
This is test #1 which was released by BUTCH TAYLOR.The rest of these tests will also be released by Butch.As far as i can tell Butch has stated that if anyone had any questions concerning these tests than they should contact the test facilities.Not sure why its being released in this manner but it is what it is
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Butch Taylor did not pay for or have anything to do with the testing.  These peppers were grown on a farm in PA and were tested just to compare the 2 since they were from the same grower.  One way to know that someone is using test results to start drama is when they XXXXX out the name of the person who paid for the testing.  
 
Geonerd said:
 
Yep.  That's not a "DNA Test" of any sort.  It's just profiling the ratio of three capsaicinoids produced by the pod.  I bet you'd get similar results from many different pairs of (interbred) supers.
 
 
(And even if it was a DNA profile test of some sort, those come in all varieties and sensitivities.  I wouldn't be surprised if low-resolution chromatography tests suggest that any number of super-hot C.Chinense are essentially identical.)
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You are right, just HPLC SHU results and probably would show most to be similar.
 
I never stated this was a DNA test.I stated this was released by Butch Taylor on fb.Butch also stated when the other results are in he will release those results as well.What or where these other tests are being conducted and whether or not these are actually going to be DNA tests(if its actually possible to determine without a doubt that two varieties are the same) is something only the people involved know.Im responded to the OP and shared what i read and saw on posts involving this topic.The fact that Butch Taylor has released this one test should remind you and everyone that this whole affair probably is something LEGIT.I believe if this topic interests you then i highly encourage all to follow the story on fb as it appears its unfolding now and you add all your questions to the people as they report it.I like reapers and i like primos and will grow and enjoy these as i wish.Go to fb and check it out for yourself!!!!
 
:)  MPicante, one is arguing with or at you!  :)
 
I'm not familiar with any of the back-story, and am just doing the "American thing" of responding strongly to issues I know nothing about! :D
 
To be honest, while I'm kinda interested in a clinical sense, I don't care remotely enough to follow the FB thread.  It sounds like a typical Jerry Springer style train-wreck. :rolleyes:  
 
Sorry, MPicante, I didn't mean it to sound like you were wrong either because like you said you're just reporting what was said.  No problem.  The results are legit.
 
I did the HPLC testing, so I thought it was odd that someone not directly involved in testing or growing (Mr. Taylor) would use it to stir up crap.  After reading the fb group you mentioned, now I know why it was reported there, for sport I guess.  Not my kind of fun and I already unjoined the group.  I just wanted you all to know that the original purpose of the testing was for quality control comparison.  thanks- Tom
 
sirex said:
Hmmm no FB. Guess I'll remain out of the loop.
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Same here.
 
I would not doubt they are very closely related, if not the same, because I have not been able to grow either with even a modicum of success.
 
1tom2go said:
Where was this posted?  It's only proof they are similar in heat.
 
Yes, only SHU, nothing more.
 
 
Butch Taylor did not pay for or have anything to do with the testing.  These peppers were grown on a farm in PA and were tested just to compare the 2 since they were from the same grower.  One way to know that someone is using test results to start drama is when they XXXXX out the name of the person who paid for the testing.  
 
 
You are right, just HPLC SHU results and probably would show most to be similar.
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I'm late on my reply and apparently you already got the answer.  I know it's not DNA.  Supposedly that is going to be released soon.  I'm super skeptical on it all, especially with names being blocked out
 
I'm not skeptical, but I am non-plused.

With the zillions of "crosses" floating around now (half of which are simply renamed off-pheno's from unstablised strains that people are trying to get some attention for),, nothing should shock.

I do know one thing. I've grown Primo's for a few seasons now and they are easily the most consistent, solid super-hot cross that I've ever grown. 
 
1tom2go is a scientist who works in a lab.  I often find myself shoveling shit.  The scope of my knowledge in dna doesnt expand much beyond the straight or curled wings on fruit flies or the eye color in human beings.  I think it was 7th grade earth science.  So he and smarter people than I can probably correct me on my first take on the DNA tests that are rumored to be coming.

From public statements made by Troy ‘Primo’ Primeaux and Ed Currie, I would not expect the the two peppers to be closely related at all.  I believe Mr. Primeaux, a horticulturalist has been very clear that he created the 7 Pot Primo by crossing Naga Morich with the original 7 Pot variety.  I have read many interviews with Mr. Curry where various different peppers were said to be those he crossed to create the Carolina Reaper.  No where have I ever read that either Naga Morich or any 7 Pot variety were involved.  It seems that with fairly different lineage, the dna should not be as similiar as one might think from their similiar appearance.

Ah but where does the line between different varieties get drawn?  This particular drama will surly put itself to bed with those dna results. But there is a broader question.  One I have asked quite a bit.  At what point do you give a thing a new name?  How far removed from the original parent(s) does a pepper have to be before we say it is unique?
 
As far as I know, the last of the Guinness World Record holders to have Plant Variety Protection Act protection was the Red Savina.  Now that the PVP protection has expired, the term "Red Savina" is a registered trademark.  You might have noticed that most dealers sell the thing as the 'Red Sav' and not by the trademarked name. 

I suspect the reason none of the others to hold the title have Plant Variety Protection coverage is in part because they can not demonstrate conclusively that they are unique.  This is why I have so many times asked for opinions on when a person should give a pepper a new name.  Have been goofing with some things for a while, dont want to be pompous or reinvent the wheel.  But would really like to name a pepper after the small town here: Waddy, KY

Someone commented that some growers create a new name for a variant of an established pepper as if isolating that dna is not worthy of a new name.  However, one of the most respected people in peppers did just that.  Although Mr. Taylor is not the one who named the Butch T Scorpion, as I understand it the pepper is a variant of Trinidad Scorpion.  So it does seem that isolating a variant is an acceptable way of creating a new pepper.  In fact, there is very little information on how the Red Sav was created.  It could have been a natural variant or it could have been the result of crossing. I do not believe the creator has said and yet the pepper was identified as a new variety by PVPA.

So I imagine the scientists n smart cookies will answer the Primo vs. Reaper question, but I think we should be thinking on the bigger question: What, if not PVPA, defines a new pepper?  Where is the line drawn between a new pepper and a renamed pepper?  I have absolutely no clue.
 
Using rounded numbers to make math easier.  Carolina Reaper high end shu is often cited as 2.2 million.  Medium is often listed as 1.6 million.  If all else is equal, to create that average doesnt that mean some are down around 1.0 million?

Has anyone ever seen the low end or maybe a range published?
 
Or you could also say that  eg.   70% are at around 1.5 million  20% at 1.6 million and 10% at 2.2 million...  still creating an average of around 1.6 million ... THis was all rough numbers and not calculated or realistic but still shows other ways to have a high average
 
cruzzfish said:
I don't think it can really tell because they're the same species and would have very, very little difference between them.
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Humans are all the same species, but there still able to easily identify members from the same family line vs non family lines.. I imagine peppers have similiar DNA identifiers.
 
ajdrew said:
From public statements made by Troy ‘Primo’ Primeaux and Ed Currie, I would not expect the the two peppers to be closely related at all.  I believe Mr. Primeaux, a horticulturalist has been very clear that he created the 7 Pot Primo by crossing Naga Morich with the original 7 Pot variety.  I have read many interviews with Mr. Curry where various different peppers were said to be those he crossed to create the Carolina Reaper.  No where have I ever read that either Naga Morich or any 7 Pot variety were involved.  It seems that with fairly different lineage, the dna should not be as similiar as one might think from their similiar appearance.
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That's kind of the issue here. People are claiming that Ed's creation is a fraudulent one. Not a "Pakistani Naga x Hab" at all.
 
KrakenPeppers said:
 
Humans are all the same species, but there still able to easily identify members from the same family line vs non family lines.. I imagine peppers have similiar DNA identifiers.
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Humans genome has been worked on a lot more and has a lot more references, and even then most of the identifiers are mitochondria, which don't scramble DNA that much. There's also the thing that humans have been mixed around a lot less than peppers have been, to the point that the reaper and the primo didn't exist fifty years ago. It's quite likely that they have similar ancestry, and combined with relatively few pepper plants that were analyzed, I think it would be harder to tell the difference between the two. Pepper family trees are just a giant mess in most cases.
 
With SHU testing.:
- Do they test one whole pepper (seeds,placenta , and flesh)?
- Do they test it per pepper or per weight unit.?
 
ajdrew, I understand your question.
With all the hype around very hot and super hot peppers , the average and low scores are thrown in the dustbin.
Nobody wants to admit to growing a 800 000 Reaper!
 
Or you can say there is no such thing as reapers and that they are really primos.
 
So much drama around that stupid pepper. 
 
Kraken, yep could work out that way too.  Is why I am curious.  I wonder how large the range is on super hots.  Kind of wondering how much has to do with growing conditions.  When my reapers and primo were tested, they were remarkably similiar in SHU.  The tests that have people bickering again were also very close, Primo on top.  I know I grew mine in similiar growing conditions and I think the test people are bickering over were in the same growing conditions.  Maybe the credit for the extreme heat, the high range, is sometimes more to the grower than the pepper itself.  Gotta admit, the numbers are getting very close these days. 
 
D3Monic, ye the Carolina Reaper numbers were on my mind because of the SHU posting comparing it to primo.  But my curiosity is more on range for commercial purposes.  My curiosity started when 1tom2go mentioned most of who he tests for is industry.  I can see how a sauce maker would like a consistent heat from peppers, that way they could have a consistent product.  I remember reading someone tell me Pace has created a jalapeno with zero heat, that way they can create consistent heat levels by adding pure food grade cap.  Wow that is off putting.  Sounds like something they would come up with in New York City.

Anyway, kind of curious about the range of the super hots.  Reaper was just on my mind cause I just saw the SHU ratings posted.

Karoo, ye that and I am kind of confused about Guinness World Records.  When it comes to most agricultural records, they tend to focus on who grew the world's largest watermelon, pumpkin, or what ever.  I remember noticing a while ago that the listing for largest pumpkin did not even mention variety.  But when it comes to the worlds hottest pepper, the focus seems more on the variety than it does on the grower.  In fact, the variety seems most often to be created by the grower.

All I can think is that it is fairly easy to measure the weight of a pumpkin at the state fair or have it verified in another way. Until very recently, laboratory testing for shu has been out of the reach of most growers.  Now that folk like 1tom2go are offering affordable testing, I look forward to reading about the world's hottest pepper grown by Mr. X or what ever.  Then we can have conversations like what nutrients promote higher shu (I say duck poop, Hippie Seed says worm farm run off).  Those are the conversations I frigging love.  Growing.


With so many chili heads who grow their own supply, I am awfully confused at the bickering.  The answer seems so very clear.  I think growers should purchase Carolina Reaper seed directly from Puckerbutt Pepper Company and 7 Pot Primo seed dirrectly from Troy Primeaux.  Grow them literally side by side, marked and alternating, same water supply, same soil, same volume of sunlight.  Then sample the pods, look at them, smell them, taste them, cook with them.

Lets turn the anger festival into something FUN.  Does anyone have a url for Mr. Primeaux's seeds directly from the man himself?  Worst outcome is we wind up with some great pods.

What do you think?  Good idea or dumb idea? 
 
Great idea AJDrew. I would love to get a handful of Primo seeds from the man himself. Did reapers this year with pretty sad results, wanting to try primo's to see if better.
 
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