Etsy.com type service for Hot Sauce / Salsa ???

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

Had a thought for creating an internet service.  I could put up an Etsy.com like service for Hot Sauce / Salsa makers.  Etsy.com is a shopping mall of sorts.  You join, you get an online store.  People can then search all the online stores, go from one to the next but each store is independently operated.  They charge a percentage, but I am thinking of doing it as a symbiotic relationship. 
 
I grow peppers, I dont really sell hot sauce or salsa. Many sauce makers do not grow peppers.  So I was figuring on having the store free but asking please consider buying my peppers.  Maybe a logo on the stores that promotes my peppers.

If you think it is a good idea and would be interested in testing as I build it, tell me which domain you think would be best:

HotPepperJuice.com - Own it, not doing anything with it.
HotSauceByMail.com - Own it, parked a Amazon affiliate store on it but could move the affiliate store for this project.
 
I enjoy symbiotic / non contractual relationships.  Like when I flipped my tractor, my neighbor saw it and came to help just cause... well that is the neighbor contract.  You see something you can laugh at later, you gotta man up and help.  Otherwise it is just plain rude to laugh later.  So have idea for online service but want to see if there is interest before I dedicate time.  Please me know what you think.
 
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Hot sauce is similar to a canned good in that it is both state and federally regulated as a product.

Everything from the recipe requiring authorization to produce to labels that have to meet rigorous FDA standards.

There is no possible way to Sell home made/hobby sauce on any site. It's not legal to sell it in the stores nor is it legal to sell across state lines.

The only exception I am aware of this with regard to small farms and the FDA exemption. If you're a farmers market vendor and you grow a certain percentage of the ingredients in the bottle, then you may sell a limited quantity of your product at the farmers market.

However, even those products must be made in a commercial kitchen and they must follow FDA guidelines. Those are very typically set up and licensed and your product will be subject to a state inspectors clearing them prior to sale.

It's all about food safety. Unclean conditions, botulism, Lack of business license or liability insurance, etc. It is for the greater good of Public Safety that these laws are in place.
 
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I agree with LDHS, but I think you could build a social network that allows like-minded folks to connect that has a full set of features which happen to be the superset of those required for said commerce ...
Oh, and it won't be as good as the one we're using now, so why bother ...
 
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Lucky Dog - I think my using Etsy.com as an example has caused you to think I am talking about literally home made hot sauces or something.  I used Etsy.com as an example of the software / service.  What I am proposing is facilitating the online sale of cottage industry products.  Of course sellers should follow the health laws.  But thank you very much for pointing this out because it is obvious that you did not think I was aware of the various laws concerning a commercial kitchen and what not.  The service would have to have something explaining this to customers.  If I do this, can I ask you for input on what that notice would say?
 
GrantMichaels - Not interested in a social site / forums.  Interested in providing full blown online stores.  For social / forum / talk, this one is just fine and very well known.   Its where i met you and I think it was you that kind of gave me this idea.  Read what I said to Lucky Dog and then please consider this. I think it was you that gave me the idea.  Bad memory, but about a month ago someone suggested that with my cognitive challenges that I focus on my strong points.  Other night, was in chat room with someone who was in his commercial kitchen making hot sauce.  He was very nice, very helpful with my questions, and I needed a Valentines day gift for my daughter who just discovered spicy food (so proud of her).  So I looked up his profile, found his site,and tried to buy some hot sauce.  His online store was very frustrating. 

Again, not sure if you were the one who gave me the advise of focusing on my strong points.  If so,thank you cause i started to think I could take a night and build this guy a really spiffy store.  Thing is, I have to make money and you know the whole time is money thing.  Selling people online stores is not one of my strong points.  Growing peppers and internet stuff are some of my strong points.  So I thought, why not combine the two in this kind of crazy idea.  Seems like everyone would benefit.

To Hot Sauce Makers - What Lucky Dog said is completely and totally accurate.  The paper work and regulations are why I stopped any effort to sell value added items (I have a relish I sell) outside of the local exemptions for farm kitchens that let us sell it at farmers markets.  However, I want to encourage folk who want to encourage cottage industry folk, so I gotta tell you that there are options where you can be legal.

1. Your Church - Many churches have commercial kitchens and offer them for rent at very low rates.  If you are a member of a church, probably even lower rates.  A good church is all about community.  They want to help their community and this is just one of the ways they can achieve that goal.  My preacher holds services in his barn when it is raining and down by the pond when it is nice.  So that is right out for me, but you should ask yours.  Religion isnt just what happens on Sunday.
 
2. Your County Extension Office - Here, our extension office is a cooperateive effort between the University of Kentucky and the Agriculture office.  They have their own commercial kitchen for rent and they also have a list of commercial kitchens you can rent from private parties.  I think it is true of other counties in other states.
 
3. Copacking - You develop your recipe in your home kitchen and then talk to a copacker who can turn it into a commercial product in their commercial kitchen.  Talking to someone here, I understand you can find a place that can do it for $2.00 a bottle with a minimum order. 

So much, much, much respect to Lucky Dog for mentioning the challenges of dancing to your own drum beat but don't think you need an absolute fortune to do it.  If you want to do it, go down to your extension office and see if they have guidance.  Hell, you might be able to find a grant if you use local produce.  They are big on that stuff.  My mentor got half his barn paid for so he could store hay during the winter because Kentucky felt there was not enough reserve under cover.
BTW: Wondering why you both leaped to the idea I was trying to get people to make hot sauce in their kitchens and sell them online.  Was it using Etsy.com as an example?
 
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Yeah, kind of ... hand-made vs home-made ...
 
I agree with the statement that many of the websites related to the ecommerce of buying and selling pepper products leaves a lot to be desired ... in my opinion.
 
I sometimes consider filling the niche myself, but I usually become disenchanted before I get started - because people ...
 
I've been kicking around the notion of open-sourcing an turn-key solution, but I talk myself out of it knowing I don't want to deal w/ people over it ...
 
People grind my gears.
 
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I did not know you did web programming.  Are you the PHP, MySql type or the Microsoft buy this now buy that type?  Warning: If you say their name three times they appear.

I think turn key eCommerce for general merchandise is a hard market.  So very many.  Etsy.com found a niche with handmade.  Not that the rules are always followed, but it still has that atmosphere a lot more than Ebay has their original atmosphere.

But kind of like THP can do well despite Facebook, Google + and all the others because TVP is in a niche, i think turn key eCommerce can work in niches.

I wasn't thinking of taking a fee and I do not think the number of hot sauce makers is there to make the effort truly profitable, but if you found a good niche it would be easy with Paypal chained payments.  Its a way for you to get your percentage fairly easily.

 
 
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ajdrew said:
  What I am proposing is facilitating the online sale of cottage industry products.  Of course sellers should follow the health laws.  
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In my county you can't sell cottage goods online. You have to do it face to face.
 
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Here too. Limited to farmers markets and does not include low acid or acidified foods ie. hot sauce. Jelly/Jam/Baked goods. In NYS.
 
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Sirex - Looking up the term cottage industry, I see that it does usually mean home based.  Not the best term for me to use.  Should have gone with small business.  Again, not trying to promote unlawful activity.  The idea is to promote people who are not Walmart.  Will try to use the term small business.
 
Hot Pepper - Kentucky is a bit more liberal.  Must be farmers market, certified road side stand, or from your own farm.  But there are two categories.  Fruit based jelly and jams fall into the first category which requires only you take a class and a test before you can register.  The other category requires that all of your recipes be approved.  In the second category, pepper / herbal jelly and jam is fine.  I think the KY rules are kind of scary because they assume high acidity from the fruit.  Some folk rely heavy on pectin and do not use much fruit.  Keeps cost of production down but is dangerous.
 
We are probably moving away from value added items and are probably going to stick with produce this year.  I am paranoid about killing people.  Also, the insurance for selling value added stuff is much, much, much higher than just selling produce.  Besides, I love growing my garden.  Cooking for people I do not know, not so much.

Can we set aside what everyone seems to want to focus on and talk about the idea.  You have lots of people in here that make and sell hot sauce and the likes.  People like Pex who I think uses a commercial kitchen.  Talked to someone else who goes the copacking route.  Not talking forum or social, wouldn't mind pointing people back here for that.  I ran a large community site for much time.  Never want to do it again cause I wind up wanting to slap people in the face with a wet flounder.  Talking online stores provided free as long as they are not Walmart.  The only forum type thing I was thinking would be support for the store software, how do I list products this, how do I create categories that.  Even then only so I wouldnt have to answer the same question over and over.

So would very much like your input and ideas.  But if I go for it, would also love you to bounce on it a bit and see if it works for you. 

First input, which url do you like more: HotPepperJuice.com or HotSauceByMail.com? I am only guessing at the HotPepperJuice.com url.  I have a kizillion urls, I forget.  But I think that is the one I bought foolishly thinking I wanted to cook for other people.

 
 
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sirex, nope but I did that the other day.  I use a topical capsasin cream.  Went a bit high on my leg.  Went to sleep.  Must have rolled just right cause woke up with capsasin balls.  At first no clue why my balls were on fire.  Let me tell you, that is one scary thing when you have no clue why.
 
Told friend, he was like oh that is nothing.  He'd chopped up a bunch of ghost peppers, rinsed his hands but evidently not well.  His wife had got some of that warming sex lube.  He put it on himself or maybe her.  Took a while, but she figured it out first. 

Goodness gracious great balls of fire!!!
 
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ajdrew said:
 
Hot Pepper - Kentucky is a bit more liberal.  Must be farmers market, certified road side stand, or from your own farm. 
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Acidified shelf stable goods must be produced in a certified kitchen in every state. They must follow all FDA guidelines and be made under the authorization of your local authority. There's no state in the country where this is not true. There can be no home-made hot sauces. I tried explaining this in the 1st reply.

And regardless of how liberal your state is, you're talking about a website. That's e-commerce. Which means you would be subject to the most stringent laws - because you have to follow the law of everywhere you might ship to.


In the second category, pepper / herbal jelly and jam is fine.  I think the KY rules are kind of scary because they assume high acidity from the fruit. 
Click to expand...
So KY jelly is ok. Noted.

:rofl:
 
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Lucky Dog - I have completely agreed with you on everything you said concerning interstate sales.  Sirex mentioned the exemptions for home based kitchens in his state of Florida: saying it required face to face sales (no internet).  Hot Pepper expanded the friendly conversation by mentioning the laws in New York: saying it required items to be sold in a farmers market.  I expanded the conversation by disusing my state of Kentucky where farm kitchens can sell certain foods from their farm, from a certified road side stand, or at the farmers markets.
 
So when you say "And regardless of how liberal your state is, you're talking about a website", it is fairly obvious you are not reading the conversation in its entirety.  I did start speaking about providing a service ( Not making hot sauce ), other members drifted to another subject much like you drifted it towards the laws on making hot sauce.  It is just how conversations take place.  In another thread, someone asked help identifying pods.  Now people are posting funny memes.  Last time I checked, I think it was 9 pages long and nobody had identified a single pod. 

Lucky Dog said: "Acidified shelf stable goods must be produced in a certified kitchen in every state."

I am sorry sir, that statement is simply not true.  The following is a quote from the Kentucky Cabinet for Health and Family Services.

"Certified home-based microprocessors that meet further requirements of the regulation may grow, harvest and process acid foods, formulated acid food products, acidified food products and low-acid canned foods."
 
http://chfs.ky.gov/dph/info/phps/food.htm

This is the second category I mentioned.  The additional requirements do not involve a commercial kitchen at all.  You take a second class, take a second test, and your recipes must be approved by someone at the university who works with the extension offices.  Again, only things for sale off your own farm, a certified road side stand, or a farmers market.
 
Lucky Dog said: "That's e-commerce. Which means you would be subject to the most stringent laws"
 
Returning to the original topic of a web service similiar in function to Etsy.com, it depends on what you mean by "you".  The service (me) would not be subject to commercial kitchen laws, inspection laws, and like that because the service would not produce hot sauce. 
 
Consider Ebay.  That service does not have to conform to any sort of health code for you to either auction hot sauce or to open an online store and sell at a fixed price.  I am sure Hot Pepper can explain this aspect more because in this department we are more talking about the liability of a service for what is posted there.  Here at THP is offered a classified section of sorts.  Hot Pepper does not need to satisfy the regulations you are speaking of for other people to offer hot sauce for sale.

Now the really fun part of this is that when I first went to sell seeds on Ebay, before I finished listing my first item, a window popped up telling me various states have regulations for selling seeds.  Instead of listing the item, i went to my local extension office and asked for help with compliance.  As a result, I take those tiny little zip lock bags and put them into a full size seed envelope because the smaller plastic bag does not have enough room for the labeling requirements.  Ebay did me a great service by pointing that out.  So I thank you for reminding me of that experiece because should I create such a service, I will be sure to do the same for hot sauce sellers explaining that the regulations are federal and pointing them to THP forums for discussion and help from knowledgeable people like you.
 
Punch line - Since then, I have had folk trash my seed packaging as being excessive.  Go figure.
 
I thank you for sharing your knowledge, commend you for being so keen on health code for interstate commerce, but point out that the conversation migrated to the cottage industry laws that most states now offer.  It is a wonderful way for people to get started locally and aspire to make the capital necessary to be as successful as you have become.
 
In closing, I can not find it now but there was a very inspirational story of a young lady making good money for college by selling her home made cookies.  When a local news agency ran a local feel good story on it, somebody contacted the health department and they shut her down.  Putting her out of business became an even bigger story.  So big, the governor of her state helped to create a law which exempted in state sales below a certain amount.  She started selling her cookies again and probably did much better for all the publicity she got.

Gotta love the underdog!
 
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And cottage laws apply to hot sauce in zero states.

There are exemptions, as I explained. However no one, not a producer or a facilitating website, would be within the law for offering such sauces for sale across state lines or online.

And you're now saying the same thing, as if to correct me. Except I already said that - producers also must have their home kitchens inspected and they must meet certain criteria. (No pets, separate entrance, health & safety code stuff)

So yeah - thanks for validating what I already posted.

Since you're in the "business" forum, and you're talking about "starting an etsy-like business for hot sauce" it seems pretty natural to assume you mean "online" - you know, since etsy is a website and all. :rolleyes:
 
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Lucky Dog, again I very much respect your concern for health law and again, the conversation has moved away from internet sales and to home based producers selling in their own states.  Mine being Kentucky.
 
Earlier you said: "Lucky Dog said: "Acidified shelf stable goods must be produced in a certified kitchen in every state."
 
I provided a link to a state of Kentucky site that states you are incorrect.  Quoted that site about acidified foods in fact.
 
Now you claim: "And cottage laws apply to hot sauce in zero states."
 
So now I will quote the University of Kentucky which operates the program with the state.
 
"Homebased Microprocessors may sell higher risk products such as canned tomatoes, pickled fruits and vegetables, salsa, barbecue sauce, pepper or herb jellies, herbal vinegars, low- and no-sugar jams and jellies, and pressure-canned vegetables."
 
No they do not specifically mention hot sauce, but they come damn close.  In Kentucky, a homebased microprocessor can put hot peppers in water, pressure can properly, and sell it at a certified road side stand, farmers market, or off your own farm.  Same for herbal vinegars. 

http://www2.ca.uky.edu/agcomm/micro/
 
You said: "No pets, separate entrance, health & safety code stuff"
 
Again guy, you seem to be talking about interstate sales where state laws do not apply because you are completely incorrect with respect to Kentucky laws concerning home based micro processing.

You do not need your kitchen inspected unless there is a complaint.
You do not need s separate entrance.
You can have pets in your home, but not in the kitchen while cooking.

If you would like, I can find the links to this as well.  Or I could get my friend who runs a farmers market and administers those rules for you to come explain it better.  Great woman, gave me space in her high tunnel this year.  Gave mind you, not rented.
 
Please do not feel I am trying to trash you or anything.  I am all about supporting the small guy.  Love the Kentucky Proud program and what our extension office does for us.  Just trying to encourage folk who want a place to start and many states provide exactly that in their home based programs.

i understand where you are coming from.  You can not possibly know all the exemptions for all the states.  That is why I have been trying to explain them with links to the state and to the University of Kentucky.  It is also why I kind of liked it when other folk started giving examples of their states rules.

Please don't discourage people.  Sure, point out the interstate rules but to tell them they just can not do it when you do not know every states laws is really counter productive to people who might want to give it a try locally.

Thought of something else to explain Kentucky, had to find my notes from the micro brewery / micro winery course.  Different subject, but it explains how lax Kentucky is.  If you produce beer / wine as a home / farm based business, you can sell not only bottled bier and wine, you can sell individual servings on your farm.  You do not need a full blown bar license at all.
 
Guy, we even have a state law that says no county or municipality can make it illegal to carry a loaded gun in your glove box or any factory installed compartment.  We are one weird state.  More so when you consider that is usually where folk keep their registration and proof of insurance.  Seems like a misunderstanding waiting to happen.
 
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I am not "discouraging" anyone.

I am stating facts.

If you want to make hot sauce legally, follow the law. Period.

The reason none of your links specifically state hot sauce is because IT IS ILLEGAL TO MAKE A HOT PACKED SHELF STABLE ACIDIFIED PRODUCT AT HOME.

Hot sauce is NOT legal to produce in any state under cottage law.

Again: the only exception is for a farm who works at a farmers market who grows a certain % of their crop. But they to MUST register their product (and get their s-letter), and they MUST have a kitchen that has been approved for manufacture of such products (e.g. "certified") - they are allowed to sell at their local farmers markets. That's it. Not in stores, not online and not across state lines.

We have several such products at my local FMs and they all have the same exception. And they all have had to build custom detached kitchens to prepare the products in, and they all have had to have the state inspect them.

That is the end of my participation in this topic.
 
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