Etsy.com type service for Hot Sauce / Salsa ???

[AJ Drew]

Had a thought for creating an internet service.  I could put up an Etsy.com like service for Hot Sauce / Salsa makers.  Etsy.com is a shopping mall of sorts.  You join, you get an online store.  People can then search all the online stores, go from one to the next but each store is independently operated.  They charge a percentage, but I am thinking of doing it as a symbiotic relationship. 
 
I grow peppers, I dont really sell hot sauce or salsa. Many sauce makers do not grow peppers.  So I was figuring on having the store free but asking please consider buying my peppers.  Maybe a logo on the stores that promotes my peppers.

If you think it is a good idea and would be interested in testing as I build it, tell me which domain you think would be best:

HotPepperJuice.com - Own it, not doing anything with it.
HotSauceByMail.com - Own it, parked a Amazon affiliate store on it but could move the affiliate store for this project.
 
I enjoy symbiotic / non contractual relationships.  Like when I flipped my tractor, my neighbor saw it and came to help just cause... well that is the neighbor contract.  You see something you can laugh at later, you gotta man up and help.  Otherwise it is just plain rude to laugh later.  So have idea for online service but want to see if there is interest before I dedicate time.  Please me know what you think.

 

[AJ Drew]

Lucky Dog - Here is part of the course at the Kentucky State University, the people that run the microprocessor program.  Its the part about how to make HOT SAUCE as part of the microprocessor program.  What were you saying?
 
"Pickled fruits or vegetables, tomatoes, salsa, barbecue sauce, hot sauce, herbal vinegars, low- or no-sugar jams and jellies" - Emphasis is mine
 
So I called that friend that runs the flee market I think I mentioned.  She pointed me to this power point presentation.  It is the course for the KY microprocessor permit.  It discusses the way the various different products need to be canned.  Hot sauce gets a water bath not pressure cooking.  Note the url is at Kentucky State University, the people who run the program, its classes, the permits..
 
If you would like, I could get their phone number.  Maybe you'd like to explain to the University of Kentucky that they are wrong.  Or maybe the Cabinet for Health, you could tell the state itself that they are wrong.  Either way, your argument is so very clearly not with me.  It is with the State of Kentucky and the University of Kentucky which both clearly state that despite your many false statements, hot sauce (by name and by description) is an acceptable product as part of the KY home based microprocessing program.
 
http://www2.ca.uky.edu/hes/internal/HBM/HBM_PowerPoint_Slides_for_Workshop_%28Required%29.pdf
 
BTW: A friend who teaches the rules at the farmers market she runs gave me the link.  Very nice person.  Gave me space in her high tunnel this year.
 
What I honestly do not understand.  Why would a CA based commercial food processor argue about KY based laws on home based production for the local farmers markets?  Why would he have that argument with someone who took the classes and sells at those local farmers markets?

Just seems really odd.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

You go off on tangents when you try to prove someone wrong. That has nothing to do with what you started this about. Operating a website that is like a mall that facilitates orders for homemade or cottage industry hot sauces and salsas online. These products would be shipped by you or the merchant, whatever. That is illegal. Go for it though. Open the etsy-like store. Take those commissions for facilitating those orders. Then get sued by all of those merchants in a class action... because they were tricked by your website into thinking it was legal!
 
There may even be racketeering charges for such a scheme.
 
Good luck with that!

 

[AJ Drew]

Grant, again I never said I wanted the service to feature home based products.  In fact, I specifically said the opposite when there was confusion over my use of etsy.com to illustrate the function of the service.  As that keeps getting rehashed, I am going to figure someone is trying to draw the focus there. 

I have now provided the link to the state agency that says it is fine, I have provided a link to the University of Kentucky which says it is fine, and I have provided a link to the University of Kentucky whose home based microprocessor class tells you some of the rules for making hot sauce.

Seems like there are only two straw man arguments left for Lucky Dog
 
  1. That you cant sell home based stuff online. Uh ye, I agreed with that right off and explained the etsy.com confusion.
  2. That the Federal Government somehow nullifies the Kentucky exemptions.  OK, wasnt talking about federal law.

Not gonna tilt with straw men.

Lucky Dog, I apologize if I upset you.  You are obviously very passionate about health laws.  I commend you.  I am just more aware of my industry than yours and you are more aware of your industry than mine.  That is why from the very beginning I agreed with you concerning internet and interstate sales.  You da man in that department.

Thing is, I get this sense that you are the doctor who looks down on the mechanic who is fixing his car.  The doctor, in this case you, should trust that the mechanic probably knows a thing or two about replacing a head gasket.  The mechanic, in this case me, should trust that the doctor knows how to care for the mechanic's health.  I respected you by bowing to your knowledge of full fledged commercial goods.  I really think you should have figured I had a clue about Kentucky law with respect to farmers markets cause, well that is mainly what I do.

Would love to further develop our relationship.  But if this debate has tainted you to that idea, I wish you the love of the world and much more success with your online sales.  You really do have a seriously spiffy site.  Just pondering ways to make things like that available to the many, many, many folk on here who also do commercial sauces.  Kind of like the online version of what I do with other farmers market folk, give each other a leg up.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

ajdrew, you just don't get it man....................

Cottage, homemade, semantics, whatever you want to call it, yes we know you mean legal "cottage" products. You still cannot ship them!
 

What I am proposing is facilitating the online sale of cottage industry products.

 
No can do! Nope. Can't be done. Locally a customer (if the state allows) can purchase a cottage good online but they have to pick it up or it can be hand delivered. NO shipping. Just hand deliver. It's more like a reservation. And that's a loophole some states use. What you are proposing is not possible. 

Like Grant said. Let's pretend it's legal in KY. You can't ship to NY. What's the use?
 
It's not legal anyway. 

 

[AJ Drew]

Hot Pepper - Yes I do go off in odd directions at times.  There is a thread in THP that started as a request to id pods.  From there it went into a review of Bakers Peppers, from there to silly memes and things kin to fart jokes.  We all do it.  I am just a little better at it.  Scatter brained.
 
However, within the first few responses I explained that I was not using Etsy.com as an example for things made in the home, but an example of the service.  I was then very clear that I was not speaking about people making hot sauce in their own kitchens.
 
"Looking up the term cottage industry, I see that it does usually mean home based.  Not the best term for me to use.  Should have gone with small business.  Again, not trying to promote unlawful activity.  The idea is to promote people who are not Walmart.  Will try to use the term small business."
 
This was all within the first few comments.  You and someone else brought up the rules for your respected states concerning home based processing.  Being very clear to say again and again I was speaking only to the rules in my state for products sold in my state, I thought to further that conversation.

And yes, when someone essentially says that people i work with are breaking the law I do try to prove them wrong.  Especially when they are wrong.  However, interesting to note that I tried to show he was wrong, he tried to show that I was wrong, and you are telling me that I was doing it.  Have I again offended you somehow?

If so, I apologize.

 

 

[grantmichaels]

You go off on tangents when you try to prove someone wrong. That has nothing to do with what you started this about. Operating a website that is like a mall that facilitates orders for homemade or cottage industry hot sauces and salsas online. These products would be shipped by you or the merchant, whatever. That is illegal. Go for it though. Open the etsy-like store. Take those commissions for facilitating those orders. Then get sued by all of those merchants in a class action... because they were tricked by your website into thinking it was legal!
 
There may even be racketeering charges for such a scheme.
 
Good luck with that!

 
Actually, I'm pretty sure if you use a reputable host (like Shopify), that they review any store which makes enough money to matter in any way in a court of law internally ...
 
Here's what I would do.
 
I would email Shopify and ask if they are aware of any reason why you can't do whatever it is you want to do. I would include the documents you have from the University. Once I got back an email that didn't tell me I couldn't, I would. And then I'd stop searching places that have the answers I don't want to find.
 
And I'd do what I want to do, and rest on the fact that your host said it was OK.
 
You can worry about class-action if you ever make money.
 
This is America, and capitalism is king. There are all kinds of things to buffer the fall for people who take risks. Bankruptcy, and more ...
 
All you are doing right now is documenting your awareness of the line you might have wanted to straddle.
 
That's so asinine that ... to quote Shark Tank, "I'm out!"

 

[The Hot Pepper]

Bahaha!
 
Bottom line is, unfortunately, such a commerce network is not possible for the cottage industry. That's kind of the point of the cottage industry. When you are ready to outgrow it, you take those necessary steps. If you don't want to take the steps and want to run your entire business on loopholes and how you interpret the law, well good luck!
 

That's so asinine that ... to quote Shark Tank, "I'm out!"

 
+1

 

[grantmichaels]

I kind of love the thread, though ...

 

[AJ Drew]

Grant, documentation from the university?  Again, not talking about home based products.  Speaking about commercial hot sauce made according to the law.

But your general idea is great.  THP has a classified section where people offer their products for sale.  So somewhere in this now really comical thread, I asked Hot Pepper for advice.  I think I even pointed Lucky Dog to the idea that what we are talking about would be best answered by Hot Pepper.

So here is the idea with better language.  A site similiar to Etsy in function which lets folk who copack or produce commercial hot sauce in compliance with all aplicable federal laws aimed at small business who as we both observed seem sometimes to be lacking in internet skills.

Guy, I look at Lucky Dogs site and I think DAMN that is spiffy.  I look at some of the others and I damn something else.  I think it was you that said focus on my strong points.  Making hot sauce is one of mine.  Afraid of killing people with a bad batch.  Internet things, oh ye.  Only thing that screws them up is people.  Where did I hear that?

Hot Pepper - You are right.  That would be why the moment I realized people were thinking I meant home kitchen because I used the term cottage industry I explained I mean small business.  I quoted that to you a moment ago.  Small business in compliance with all laws.

 

[grantmichaels]

fuck it,
ship it.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

Wait. Now it's commercial hot sauce? LOL.
 
Damn dude........... what are you smoking?
 
Of course you can sell and ship commercial hot sauces online. I really don't understand what is going on here...... is this a dream???

This time I'm really out! Because I think I am really sleeping in my bed!!!!

 

[AJ Drew]

Hot Pepper - Please read the first few comments where i state just that.  I used etsy.com as an example, someone thought that meant home made.  I tried to explain using the term cottage industry.  People felt that term means homemade.  I conceded that since that term causes confusion I should use the term small business.  Included words like legal.  All in the first few replies to Lucky Dog.

In fact, the term cottage industry does not denote only home made things.  That is usually the first definition but definition number two is something like this:

A small-scale industry, with relatively few employees or a limited customer base or low economic impact
 
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/cottage_industry
 
But if it causes confusion, it's not a great term to use.  I am however curious, if a person copacks do you feel they should be excluded from the term cottage industry?  If the labor of shipping, ordering, figuring out recipes is all done from home but the family uses a copacker is that automatically cottage industry?  I ask because I am very fond of the term.  To me, it says small family business.. no cottage really needed.

 

[The Hot Pepper]

You could have avoided a lot of confusion earlier lol.
 
Cottage industry, though you are fond of the term, should not be applied to a commercial business. The cottage industry is for those not seeking or ready for the national or international market, so the laws are relaxed. Farmers markets and local sales only.
 
Lucky Dog is a small business but not cottage. Yes he has a co-packer.
 
DO NOT use the term for your mall or people will get the wrong idea.
 
Artisan, Boutique, Craft, these are all appropriate terms.
 
Just my 2c. You can use it if you want.

 

[Lucky Dog Hot Sauce]

Wait. Now it's commercial hot sauce? LOL.
 
Damn dude........... what are you smoking?
 
Of course you can sell and ship commercial hot sauces online. I really don't understand what is going on here...... is this a dream???

This time I'm really out! Because I think I am really sleeping in my bed!!!!

Pretty sure the topic title says something's about Etsy.com

That might be what's causing some confusion.

I might have been mistaken though. I don't know - I've had the ever changing and quite obviously insane duck dude on ignore since my last post. It's very peaceful. Highly recommended.

Lucky Dog is a small business but not cottage.

Correct - I do not live in a cottage. Topic over?

 

[AJ Drew]

Hot Pepper - Within a few posts, I understood the confusion and explained it.  Now thinking of terms like Mom and Pop while stressing small business.

Lucky Dog - You were shown to be absolutely wrong.  In the state of Kentucky, hot sauce is an acceptable product for the home based microprocessing program.  Despite the links to official state of Kentucky webs sites, to the University of Kentucky, to training material produced by the people who run the program; you continued to insist you were right.  In effect, you were demanding that you were right and both the state of Kentucky itself and the University of Kentucky was wrong.  Why?
 
Now that I have made it abundantly clear that you were incorrect you switch from your previous straw man arguments to your current ad hominem.  Why?
 
Is this some sort of desire to look more informed than the new guy?  Maybe a king of the playground thing?  I think rather than showing people you are the more educated the new guy, you demonstrated that you think you are more educated in Kentucky law than the University of Kentucky itself.  After all, it was their links and information you demanded were wrong.  Think about that for a moment.  Let it sink in.  You essentially declared the University of Kentucky to be less educated i Kentucky law than yourself.
 
Wouldnt it have been easier to go to the links i provided to the University and the State itself, see that I was accurately representing their quotes and gone; damn, stuff is different in Kentucky?
 
Its like this, they all know I am crazy.  Now they know a little bit more about you.

Would still love a friend request from you.  Obviously we have a lot to learn from each other.

 

[sirex]

I looked at every link you provided. Even the same one you linked to  5 times in the same post.
 
I think everybody is right to some extent and wrong to some extent.
 
In KY you can produce hot sauce at home..But your home kitchen essentially becomes a certified inspected kitchen

 
 
Here's the thing though. In all of the documents you submitted AJDrew it never specifically says "hot sauce" except once. It says salsa (which, yes is Spanish for sauce, but here in good ole Murica we take it to mean the chunky tomato product.)
 
No hot sauce

 
Here is the one that says hot sauce 

 
 
Funny thing is, 212F doesn't kill botulism. So what do we do?? We us a recipe that has a Process Authority letter that ensures a pH of lower than 4.6. Or use a pressure canner. But the slide doesn't say that a pressure canner is needed for hot sauce. It says a BWB is sufficient.
 
 
Doesnt sound like cottage food anymore.  Certified kitchen. Process Authority letter. Thats what I need to legally make sauce in Florida.
 
 
 
So....
 
Yes you can legally make and sell hot sauce out of your house in KY. That is because you have turned your home kitchen into a commercial kitchen according to the great state of Kentucky.
 
Which is actually really, really cool to me.
 
 
Still can't sell it on the internet though as that would need a commercial license
 
 

 
 
 
But I know that's not the point  you are trying to present AJDrew.
 
 
Personally, I like you AJDrew. You seem like a kooky, crazy grandpa. You just come off like a sarcastic dick most of the time when you defend yourself. And that's ok. I think maybe sometimes you get jumped on too fast but that's because sometimes it seems like your comments are disingenuous.
 
I looked at the saucebymail.com site.
 
So how does this work? I clicked on a sauce and it said I could check out with Amazon and I looked at the amazon site and the product was the same amount of money.  Is this just to "spread the love" ? How would/do you make any money off of this idea.

 

[Lucky Dog Hot Sauce]

Funny thing is, 212F doesn't kill botulism. So what do we do?? We us a recipe that has a Process Authority letter that ensures a pH of lower than 4.6. Or use a pressure canner. But the slide doesn't say that a pressure canner is needed for hot sauce. It says a BWB is sufficient.
 
 
Doesnt sound like cottage food anymore.  Certified kitchen. Process Authority letter. Thats what I need to legally make sauce in Florida.
 
 
 
So....
 
Yes you can legally make and sell hot sauce out of your house in KY. That is because you have turned your home kitchen into a commercial kitchen according to the great state of Kentucky.
 
Which is actually really, really cool to me.
 
 
Still can't sell it on the internet though as that would need a commercial license

 
Which is exactly what I'd said several times in here. 
 
We've come full circle - yay!  
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

[sirex]

Its not a circle until its full
Its not a circle until its full

 

[The Hot Pepper]

It's hard to jump in to one of these conversations late because it's often down some side street nothing to do with the avenue.
 
But what he is saying is he wants to offer this network service for fully licensed commercial sauces, but he likes the term cottage because it conjures artistry and handcrafting.
 
Farmers markets have both cottage and commercial. LD does farmers markets. That's what he wants to do. Basically bring the farmers market experience to a mall like shop online with commercial sauces.
 
I say do not use the word cottage, or the term cottage industry.
 
Boutique is a good word to use.
 
I mentioned a few others.

I looked at every link you provided. Even the same one you linked to  5 times in the same post.
 
I think everybody is right to some extent and wrong to some extent.
 
In KY you can produce hot sauce at home..But your home kitchen essentially becomes a certified inspected kitchen
 
Still can't sell it on the internet though as that would need a commercial license
 

 
My point was about the shipping after an online sale. But that is moot now. He means legal commercial sauces.
 
Back on track. Do your thing with the mall idea!
 
The "juice" domain name, no! What is hot sauce juice? LOL.

 

[Lucky Dog Hot Sauce]

It's hard to jump in to one of these conversations late because it's often down some side street nothing to do with the avenue.
 
But what he is saying is he wants to offer this network service for fully licensed commercial saucers, but he likes the term cottage because it conjures artistry and handcrafting.
 
Farmers markets have both cottage and commercial. LD does farmers markets. That's what he want to do. Basically bring the farmers marker experience to a mall like shop online with commercial sauces.
 
I say do not use the word cottage, or the term cottage industry.
 
Boutique is a good word to use.
 
I mentioned a few others.

Yes, but I'm also in stores and selling in 11 other states & 3 other countries.

My ability to do that is facilitated by having my FDA in place, making the sauce in a certified kitchen and under the guidance of a licensed canner.

Just like in 100% of the other states, including KY.



Some market vendors have the FDA exemption - they can sell only at the FM, if they grow a certain % of their ingredients. They still must have their kitchen certified & inspected, but don't hVe to list ingredients or follow the same FDA labeling guidelines that I do. I know they have to have recipes cleared but I believe it is a less stringent process.