F1's sold by vendors that don't make sense

I make crosses, I grow crosses, I share crosses.  When I share my crosses I am transparent about the plants I use, which generation they are and so on.
 
I grow "pure" lines, keep them pure, keep them going, and share these.
 
I also grow wilds, keep them going, share these.
 
There really isn't a problem, it's your garden you can do what you want, this is a personal preference.  There's a ton of stuff out there I don't want to grow, but I don't want to tell anyone else what to do.  I like knowing where plants come from, I think their histories are interesting, but again this is just me, maybe some people out there don't care...


Amen! :D
 
I think plenty has been said about hybrids and I agree with those that are doing their own crosses, pretty much everyone here are responsible growers who take pride in growing and crossing their peppers.  There are some loose cannons out there though mostly in the money market that make me wonder why they released a certain cross,  I worry at times, maybe a little too much about where our love for peppers is heading, but its not up to me to decide if its good or bad, I will leave that up to the experts who in the long run will make those decisions.  I do think that its good to stop and think about what we're doing at times, for me growing different kinds of hot and sweet peppers is a lot of fun and that is the way it should be. 
 
wildseed57 said:
I think plenty has been said about hybrids and I agree with those that are doing their own crosses, pretty much everyone here are responsible growers who take pride in growing and crossing their peppers.  There are some loose cannons out there though mostly in the money market that make me wonder why they released a certain cross,  I worry at times, maybe a little too much about where our love for peppers is heading, but its not up to me to decide if its good or bad, I will leave that up to the experts who in the long run will make those decisions.  I do think that its good to stop and think about what we're doing at times, for me growing different kinds of hot and sweet peppers is a lot of fun and that is the way it should be. 
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I agree that thinking about what you're doing is good, but I think worrying about what you can't control (i.e. what other people are doing or selling) is a waste of time, just more extra stress for you.
 
By experts, do you mean genebanks like GRIN that maintain germplasm collections?
 
I remember someone else on THP lamenting the loss of some hard-to-find varieties.  Ultimately I guess a business needs to concern itself with making money, this might not match up with preserving pepper varieties that only 5 people would be interested in buying.  So if you can't rely on businesses, then you're down to germplasm collections, hobby growers and wherever those peppers came from (e.g. Galapagos Islands).  Species do die out, varieties do seem to become harder-to-find if not lost when unprofitable for business... (Businesses → Hobbyists → Germplasm collections → pepper's place of origin → extinction)
 
Personally, I tried to share as much C. galapagoense seed as I could from my 2013 harvest, I only stopped sharing when I ran out of seed.  But I don't know if I can do that every season, for the rest of my life.  I do hope some of the people I shared with will be successful and then share the seed.  And I think there is enough interest around here that that one will keep going.  But there are some others that don't generate that much interest and might be at risk.
 
But relax, don't loose sleep, do what you can... what else can you do?
 
The most fun I had in my last season grow was the f1 I bought. From ine batch if ten seeds ive got 4 similar but different pods. Its awesome.
 
Hi Spicegeist, I wanted to thank you again for the C. galapagoense seeds, they were the first of several seeds that germinated for me. I think some of my worries is compounded by the drugs I take now, I find myself jumping on the soap box to often over nothing, I did  get plenty of feedback which is good, there was surprisingly more good feedback than negative, but I wasn't trolling to see if I could make someone angry which wasn't what I was after, but to see what others were doing and what they felt and if anyone was concerned about genetic pollution.  By experts I did mean the Grin Germ Bank and others  like the one they built in Norway I believe that now holds about a million varieties of various plant species in case of a genetic armageddon. There are some Big name companies that are deciding on what we should be growing or not growing, and why Monsanto has been banned in several countries, but enough said there. This is one of the few great forums where the exchange of ideas doesn't bring down the raft of god if you disagree with someone about a subject,  although heated discussions do happen at times. Growing peppers is what brings us altogether and bonds us as friends no matter where we are or who we are, rich or poor, and you can't beat that.  
 
wildseed57 said:
Hi Spicegeist, I wanted to thank you again for the C. galapagoense seeds, they were the first of several seeds that germinated for me. I think some of my worries is compounded by the drugs I take now, I find myself jumping on the soap box to often over nothing, I did  get plenty of feedback which is good, there was surprisingly more good feedback than negative, but I wasn't trolling to see if I could make someone angry which wasn't what I was after, but to see what others were doing and what they felt and if anyone was concerned about genetic pollution.  By experts I did mean the Grin Germ Bank and others  like the one they built in Norway I believe that now holds about a million varieties of various plant species in case of a genetic armageddon. There are some Big name companies that are deciding on what we should be growing or not growing, and why Monsanto has been banned in several countries, but enough said there. This is one of the few great forums where the exchange of ideas doesn't bring down the raft of god if you disagree with someone about a subject,  although heated discussions do happen at times. Growing peppers is what brings us altogether and bonds us as friends no matter where we are or who we are, rich or poor, and you can't beat that.  
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Yes, I agree... don't mind me, I'm just drinking too much coffee ;)
 
HEY I'M GROWING ALL KINDS OF CRAY STUFF SOME I SAVED SOME I BOUGHT SOME I TRADED LETS SEE WHAT HAPPENS
 
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Anyone know/have an idea what the chances a pepper that hasn't been cross pollinated will be the same thing as the parent if it's an F1. Because then you would need only plant that many of them in order to get the perfect pepper that you had earlier. I now have some statistics to write out.
 
wildseed57 said:
Hi, I was browsing some of the vendors which I won't  name, but found one that was selling F1 and F2 hybrids and even made up a name for them, I'll agree that many hybrids will have better growth with added disease resistance and possibly be even hotter, but just to take a pepper like the Bhut Jolokia and cross it with a C. galapagoense to me makes no sense at all, as there has been little study to show that the Bhut cross any better than what it is already by crossing it with a rare wild species like C. galapagoense.
At F1 and F2 you are still guessing if the cross would improvement or not. 
They also had a F1  hybrid called Upica, the cross reminds me of a Chocolate Naga or a Brown 7 Pot. I can only guess what it was crossed with.
Don't get me wrong as I happen to like a lot of the crosses that are going around, but some are just another way to get people to buy them and if you keep the seeds the next generation would not be the same and you would have to keep selecting various qualities that you like and it would still be a gamble that the cross would be an improvement.
I think it would be better to do the crosses and select for the best qualities at F6 to F8 at F6 you would still have to grow it out a couple more times to get what you like about it and perhaps have a good pepper,  F8 would be fairly stable and you would have a good idea what attributes the pepper would have.  This would be a lot fairer than just making up a bunch of crosses and then releasing them to the public also it would cut down a lot of confusion as to what the pepper may be like as you would know what you are getting.
I'm not trying to stomp on someone's dream of making money, but hey it just adds to all the confusion as to what is already out there.
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I have been to this thread on a couple of occasions and held back from commenting. I didn't want to call you out for "not naming" a vendor,and then listing a searchable name "Upica" well known cross, Bhut Jolokia x galapagoense(Impact)....why not just name the vendor? I'm still not calling you out,and I'm not going to defend said vendor. I just want to point out a couple things. The peppers on this vendors site have the generation listed,that is really cool,something you never see. This vendor also has cool ways of naming these,not your typical marketing garbage. Email him,or PM him here,you will be surprised at how he gets most names.

Secondly,there are tons of folks all over the globe who are going in the oposite direction of what you see in this hobby and industry. There are plenty of forums and associations that need active and dedicated folks. I have been dedicating most of my space and time to this cause. I am growing out seed for IPK bank among other things. If you are intetested in some connections,or are interested in growing for pure seed/stabilization,feel free to PM me for info. Again,I'm not calling anyone out,I'm offering you something to rid your contempt and give you a positive to focus on.
 
cruzzfish said:
Anyone know/have an idea what the chances a pepper that hasn't been cross pollinated will be the same thing as the parent if it's an F1. Because then you would need only plant that many of them in order to get the perfect pepper that you had earlier. I now have some statistics to write out.
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Are you saying a new species all together? If a plant is an F1 then it has to be a cross of some type. So at that point you would have I think 50/50 chance of it being the mother phenotype or fathers phenotype.
 
I pretty much stopped trading a LOT of seed varieties these days.
 
I have NO problem with seeds that are said to be F anything.
 
My problem is I like to spread the heat and when I get Cayenne seeds I don't expect to get a super hots...a cross that looks like a scorpion , bhut or 7 pot.
 
My ability to spread seeds to the chili impaired (My mission in life.)depends on seeds people grow out and donate to the cause.
 
Non isolated Jalapenos are fine as long as that wasn't 1 plant grown in the middle of an acre of supers.
 
ALSO people buy pods for whatever , trade the seeds for whatever to get what they want,seeds were traded AS what the pod was supposed to be,for what was wanted.
 
I miss the good old days.
Back then it was spreading the heat,finding landrace or new varieties around.
 
Now it is $ , cheapens the whole thing.
 
I see a LOT of the oldtimers I know(on the net) that probably forgot more about chili's than a ton of the guys on blogs claim they are experts on.
 
As far as FACTS about new  varieties/strains or whatever they call it to sell seeds these days is mostly B.S.,nothing is stable...
 
LawrenceJ2007 said:
 
Are you saying a new species all together? If a plant is an F1 then it has to be a cross of some type. So at that point you would have I think 50/50 chance of it being the mother phenotype or fathers phenotype.
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What I meant is that say, the F1 chocolate bhutlah retaining all the same traits down to F8, rather than turning to something resembling an F1 bhutlah around the third or fourth generation that later becomes stable due to recessive genes being expressed. 
 
Hi Pr0digal_son,  I didn't name the Vendor at the time as I just didn't feel it was necessary to drag them along in these posting, at any point they have the right to sell whatever they want too. I just felt that a couple of the hybrids crosses seemed a bit odd and at the time I saw them they didn't quite make any sense to me.  The Upica was a cross of some type of brown 7 pot or chocolate naga crossed with ??? which left me trying to think what the whole cross was and why it had that name,  as I had not seen or heard of that one before.
Later I remembered where and who might have made some of the crosses in the first place or had grown them for the vendor and I didn't want to point fingers at anyone or name names, as that was not the point of the Post. 
 
As I have been Quite ill, I no longer care about what forums or Organizations are doing and have quit some of the forms I belong to, do to politics. 
My only concern now is my garden and what I grow, my family, friends, this forum and what time I may have left.
If I have offended anyone I'm sorry as that was not my intention.
 
Truth is most multinational seed companies sell f1 varietals simply to get repeat customers and to create varieties that might need (often there own brand) of fertliser and sprays to really thrive ...

Creates a flow of effect of requiring constant capital outlay every season ... Its all about the cash flow.
Bottom line I would rather something be called an f1 so you know.
I don't think naming the f1s something fancy is new or unique ... Probably not necessarily needed but its blatant and not devious so I don't see the harm in it as long as the people buying them are aware they are likely just buying two common varieties crossed once that they could do themselves
 
Seed company have used names as a gimmick to get people to buy a lot of plants that are the same ones under different names at times, if the first name doesn't attract buyers they will often change the name.  I have two spring shelling peas that may or may not be the same pea, one is called King Tuts which has a deep purple shell with purple red flowers, then I have another that is called Blue podded Blauwschokkers both produce 3-5 inch dark purple pods with green to creamy white peas and purple red flowers both plants get to be about 4 to five feet tall they could be one and the same as they were once sold by the same seed co, back in the 1800's with in a year or two of each other. At that time if a plant didn't sell well,  they would often just change the name and try selling it again.
 So yeah names are just a gimmick at time to get you to buy a plant, easier than just saying its a F1 pepper chocolate X something which may or may not attract buyer's.  or in the case of King Tut's Pea where supposedly the pea was found in a clay vase in King Tut's tomb. to add to the atraction of buying a pea variety,  the same would apply to peppers or any other plant for that matter.
 
VERY few legitimate seed companies use their name and or sell their crosses(truthfully) as F?.
 
If you are talking about seed vendors who are selling a cross AS what it is (F?).
How can you/anyone get pissed off IF they sold/advertised the seeds as F?/ crosses.
 
IF you are talking about Rainbowchili seeds you are wrong.
 
http://www.rainbowchiliseeds.com/catalog/c4_p1.html 
 
He sells his seeds as what they are,F whatever for several of his crosses.
F 2 and F3 Armegeddan..
 
Over the years,I've NEVER had a bad experience with Rainbow Chili seed.
 
Vladan is VERY Cool!
 
If you are talking to me I never said anything about rainbow chili seeds,  and I'm not pissed off about anything, I also know that Vladan is a good seed dealer,
 If you would go farther back and read my post you would see that I'm not pointing my finger at anyone, that I only thought that some F1s that were coming out were odd crosses to me.  I didn't say that they were bad or that hybrids were a rip off or that dealers that sell hybrids are trying to rip off people.
I grow several hybrid crosses and I know several people that are selling crosses that they have made, there is nothing wrong with that.
This is why I don't use peoples names or for that matter seed companies names in my post so that no one gets mad over nothing.
If making a hybrid pepper was wrong we would not have all the great OPs and crosses we have today, just about every pepper out there started out as a cross at some point except for the wild species, which are used to cross into various peppers to make them better.
If we didn't make crosses or selected for pod size and taste along with how well the plant grew or if it had any disease resistance we would still be eating little bird peppers and there would not be any of the great varieties we have now, what might sound as a odd cross now,  may turn out to be a very good variety in the future should someone choose to take it to the next level and grow it to F8 or F10 there is nothing wrong with that in my book.
 
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