F1's sold by vendors that don't make sense

Ya want Drama , Check out PI #'s etc. on here - 
 
http://www.ars-grin.gov/npgs/acc/acc_queries.html
 
or about any other Gov. or private Data Base..
 
They aren't much different from other national data bases/seed banks.
 
Find CO , CAP , Grin , CGN , PI or whatever #'s for the same pepper - several turn out to be the same name for something else - sometimes a weed or tree...
 
Toss in the race for worlds hottest and let the games continue. LOL
 
I can name one pepper that has had several names that it use to be sold under and that is C.baccatum var. Orchid pepper, Bishop Hat, Peri Peri, plus one more name I can't think of. names can be very confusing at times and be relied on for accuracy. Some unrelated plants have the same name that is why you need to use their latin name along with Var after it and that is no guarantee that you will get the right plant that you might want and only if you know what you are looking for.
 
wildseed57 said:
Hi, I was browsing some of the vendors which I won't  name, but found one that was selling F1 and F2 hybrids and even made up a name for them, I'll agree that many hybrids will have better growth with added disease resistance and possibly be even hotter, but just to take a pepper like the Bhut Jolokia and cross it with a C. galapagoense to me makes no sense at all, as there has been little study to show that the Bhut cross any better than what it is already by crossing it with a rare wild species like C. galapagoense.
At F1 and F2 you are still guessing if the cross would improvement or not. 
They also had a F1  hybrid called Upica, the cross reminds me of a Chocolate Naga or a Brown 7 Pot. I can only guess what it was crossed with.
Don't get me wrong as I happen to like a lot of the crosses that are going around, but some are just another way to get people to buy them and if you keep the seeds the next generation would not be the same and you would have to keep selecting various qualities that you like and it would still be a gamble that the cross would be an improvement.
I think it would be better to do the crosses and select for the best qualities at F6 to F8 at F6 you would still have to grow it out a couple more times to get what you like about it and perhaps have a good pepper,  F8 would be fairly stable and you would have a good idea what attributes the pepper would have.  This would be a lot fairer than just making up a bunch of crosses and then releasing them to the public also it would cut down a lot of confusion as to what the pepper may be like as you would know what you are getting.
I'm not trying to stomp on someone's dream of making money, but hey it just adds to all the confusion as to what is already out there.
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I don't care about these things - If you understand the (F) terminology, then you know what you are getting yourself into.  I like crosses, whether intentional or accidental.  It is fun to see what gets produced. 
 
There is nothing wrong with hybridizing peppers as I have stated many times before, heck I'm growing several of them myself, some are really vigarious like the Rocoto X Rocoto, Moruga X Brain Strain and Chocolate Bhut X Yellow 7 pot chocolate variation F6 are really growing fast.  Miss labeling can lead to Identification problems if the cross looks like one of it parental counterparts and someone labels it as something else and its not caught down the line and later labeled as a variation of something its not.
On most of my trades that I get, I hope that they are what they are supposed to be, but as I have stated accidents happen so I have to figure that its a possibility that they may have crossed , so I try and find photo's of the cross to compare it with mine, not a biggy, but can take awhile to find a detailed photo's of flowers the plant and pods if I suspect that it may be a cross or out cross of what its supposed to be. I enjoy growing peppers and gardening as I have been doing it for a long time 30 plus years and hope to be able to continue for at least another 10 or 15 years before I have to give it up.Last years cancer surgery almost made that decision for me.
 
A genuine F1 has it's place - it is the product of line breeding each of the parents to fix the traits - then outcrossing those two to arrive at a predertimed outcome.  Sounds easy but requires a heck of a lot of knowledge of the transfer of information - what will be dominant what will be recessive.  It takes years to accomplish.  The progeny should all be uniform.  Needless to say that is why proper F1 is sold as seed - for commercial growers.  They might grow them as a commercial crop knowing exactly what the outcome is (days to fruit, ripening time etc etc etc) or they might sell the plants (in the case of flowering plants for nurseries).  F1 seed is usually expensive because of the time (crosses - grow out, evaluate, fail - try new parents etc) that it takes to get it right. 
 
However with non-professional breeders (i.e. not looking for a predertimed outcome but just excited about experimenting with the hope of finding something interesting - nothing wrong with it at all!) your F1seed is a Pandora's Box.  Your F2 seed is a circus!  If you are willing to accpet the amount of variation you are going to get and this is something that excites/interests you then I don't see a problem.  At least they are stating what generation it is. 
 
Hi, I was browsing some of the vendors which I won't  name, but found one that was selling F1 and F2 hybrids and even made up a name for them, I'll agree that many hybrids will have better growth with added disease resistance and possibly be even hotter, but just to take a pepper like the Bhut Jolokia and cross it with a C. galapagoense to me makes no sense at all, as there has been little study to show that the Bhut cross any better than what it is already by crossing it with a rare wild species like C. galapagoense.
At F1 and F2 you are still guessing if the cross would improvement or not. 
They also had a F1  hybrid called Upica, the cross reminds me of a Chocolate Naga or a Brown 7 Pot. I can only guess what it was crossed with.
Don't get me wrong as I happen to like a lot of the crosses that are going around, but some are just another way to get people to buy them and if you keep the seeds the next generation would not be the same and you would have to keep selecting various qualities that you like and it would still be a gamble that the cross would be an improvement.
I think it would be better to do the crosses and select for the best qualities at F6 to F8 at F6 you would still have to grow it out a couple more times to get what you like about it and perhaps have a good pepper,  F8 would be fairly stable and you would have a good idea what attributes the pepper would have.  This would be a lot fairer than just making up a bunch of crosses and then releasing them to the public also it would cut down a lot of confusion as to what the pepper may be like as you would know what you are getting.
I'm not trying to stomp on someone's dream of making money, but hey it just adds to all the confusion as to what is already out there.
What does F_ mean?
 
The F refers to Filial -  pertaining to relationship of offspring i.e. son or daughter.  So F1 is the first generation of offspring from a particular union of parents - however it is not used in a family sense - only for plant or animal outcrosses or hybrids.  If you take the F1 generation and breed them together you arrive at the F2 and so on and so forth.
 
In an F1 generation the outcomes can be predicted to an extent (there are tables that show the relative inheritance of information) - provided of course whether you if a gene is recessive or dominant.  So generally speaking if you cross a long, pointy deep red chili with a yellow, squat blunt end chili you could theoretically get four main themes (with minor variations) - unless of course both plants were carrying extra recessive genes for colour (brown in chili is one such colour).
 
In the F2, where these siblings are now bred with each other - or even themselves, it becomes random and unpredicatable because of the recombination of already recombined genes.
 
However if you select from this haywire group that which best suits your purpose, and breed that with itself or a similar sibling, the results will become more and more uniform after each generation - i.e. moving from heterozygous to homozygous.  This takes about 8 or 9 generations.
 
RobStar said:
A genuine F1 has it's place - it is the product of line breeding each of the parents to fix the traits - then outcrossing those two to arrive at a predertimed outcome.  Sounds easy but requires a heck of a lot of knowledge of the transfer of information - what will be dominant what will be recessive.  It takes years to accomplish.  The progeny should all be uniform.  Needless to say that is why proper F1 is sold as seed - for commercial growers.  They might grow them as a commercial crop knowing exactly what the outcome is (days to fruit, ripening time etc etc etc) or they might sell the plants (in the case of flowering plants for nurseries).  F1 seed is usually expensive because of the time (crosses - grow out, evaluate, fail - try new parents etc) that it takes to get it right. 
 
However with non-professional breeders (i.e. not looking for a predertimed outcome but just excited about experimenting with the hope of finding something interesting - nothing wrong with it at all!) your F1seed is a Pandora's Box.  Your F2 seed is a circus!  If you are willing to accpet the amount of variation you are going to get and this is something that excites/interests you then I don't see a problem.  At least they are stating what generation it is. 
Click to expand...
 
 
Pandora's Box would be a great name for a hybrid pepper.
 
 
 
Seriously, what do you call a stabilized F8 cross of something like Yellow 7 Pot x Jamaica Scotch Bonnet?
 
Been done already - the CARDI Yellow Scorpion!  Although I wouldn't say entirely stable as regards phenotype - some look like Bonnets, some like a 7 Pot (but bigger and less bumpy) and some like a Scorpion - stinger and all.  But all taste like a hotter Scotch Bonnet - intensely fruity: tropical fruit with a definite citrus kicker and very sweet.  Definitely a favourite.
 
RobStar said:
Been done already - the CARDI Yellow Scorpion!  Although I wouldn't say entirely stable as regards phenotype - some look like Bonnets, some like a 7 Pot (but bigger and less bumpy) and some like a Scorpion - stinger and all.  But all taste like a hotter Scotch Bonnet - intensely fruity: tropical fruit with a definite citrus kicker and very sweet.  Definitely a favourite.
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Yep, every single one of mine looked like a TS
 
1462984_680264758673920_16329515_n.jpg
 
JoynersHotPeppers said:
Yep, every single one of mine looked like a TS
 
1462984_680264758673920_16329515_n.jpg
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I have six CARDI Yello Scorp plants: 2 produce exactly the same as yours - although they ripen to orange (!), two produce fruits that want to look like yours but have a typoical MOA SB look about them - the "stinger" in this case is short, rounded and shows 4 locules, the last two look like gigantic 7 Pots but not quite so bumpy but with definite BrainStrain-type ridges on the shoulders.  Funny thing is the one 7 Pot-like variant has unripe fruit that are very pale green whereas the other is dark green.  The pale green stays that way for ages and then turns whitish and then a beautiful canary yellow.  But heat and taste are the same for all the variations.
 
I am keeping the seed of all the variations separate.  I will rather perpetuate the Scorpion "proper" in my grow-outs and keep seed of the other variations if anyone wants to grow them. 
 
I had been wondering what the reaper x  tepin cross looked like, and the tepin x 7pd barrackpore should be a real B. to bite into.
I have been looking into the possibility of a Praetermissum X Chinense to see if they would cross to begin with and if there would be any anvantages gene wise that would make a great little pepper even better with possible insect and disease resistance.
 
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