fermenting Ferment Questions

[parker49]

Hello all, i will be starting my first ferment soon, assuming i have peppers that ripen like i hope  . Anyway i got a few half gallon jars and a few airlocks, but i am not sure if i will have enough patience to wait long enough to get enough peppers to fill up the jar.  if it is only say half full and i have some kind of weight to hold the mash down will this prevent the oxygen from getting to it or do i need to get a smaller jar and fill it to a couple of inches below the airlock? Thanks in advance.

 

[Koreansoul]

You want to leave some room because the ferment will bubble and move around (push up). I'm not sure you want a weight to hold it down? I never have. We're all different though. 

 

[parker49]

You want to leave some room because the ferment will bubble and move around (push up). I'm not sure you want a weight to hold it down? I never have. We're all different though. 

Yeah but if it is only half full will that be a problem?

 

[hotstepper]

Yes, it's typically best to fill your jars to at or about 1.5" to 2" to capacity. A smaller jar might be your best option. That said, you could keep adding peppers as they are harvested into the ferment and fill it gradually. Do you plan on fermenting a mash or larger pieces of fruit?

You want to leave some room because the ferment will bubble and move around (push up). I'm not sure you want a weight to hold it down? I never have. We're all different though. 

I use glass disks for wide mouths and I love them.

 

[parker49]

Yes, it's typically best to fill your jars to at or about 1.5" to 2" to capacity. A smaller jar might be your best option. That said, you could keep adding peppers as they are harvested into the ferment and fill it gradually. Do you plan on fermenting a mash or larger pieces of fruit?

I use glass disks for wide mouths and I love them.

Probably a mash. Where do you get the glass disc at?

 

[randyp]

       Freeze them until you have enough to fill the jar if ya want to mess with it all at once.You will have fun working with ferments.
   I watched some guy on youtube do his ferment a little at a time,telling us to add a little salt each time you put in fresh peppers.I ended up with a frikkin salt block that I could use on my damn driveway last year.Wasted some good peppers but learned a lesson.

 

[hotstepper]

Probably a mash. Where do you get the glass disc at?

I get them from here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Glass-Lacto-Fermentation-Jar-Weights-hold-food-below-brine-to-ferment-in-a-jar-/121149550883?pt=Kitchen_Tools_Gadgets&var=&hash=item1c35137123
But I think the glass weights wouldn't do much good with a mash unless buoyed by a larger piece of vegetative matter keeping the mash submerged below the surface liquid. My prefered method is to ferment larger pieces of fruit/vegetable until the pH lowers to a level that will keep most nasties at bay and then use a submersion blender to create a mash for a second ferment. This method has worked excellently for me. Hope this helps!

 

[Koreansoul]

Koreans (and myself) ferment a lot of stuffs (yes I said stuffs). We don't use any fancy do dads and the population of the country seems ok . The problem with the amount of space is the oxygen which can contribute to bad things growing. If you clean your equipment (glass jar etc) you should be fine. 

 

[hotstepper]

Koreans (and myself) ferment a lot of stuffs (yes I said stuffs). We don't use any fancy do dads and the population of the country seems ok . The problem with the amount of space is the oxygen which can contribute to bad things growing. If you clean your equipment (glass jar etc) you should be fine.

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but the onggi (Korean fermenting crock) rates as a pretty nifty 'do dad' as it's been employed by Koreans for thousands of years. An old piece of technology for sure, but it does a beautiful job by design. Also, Korean fermenting (as well as many Asian pickles) tend to use massive amounts of salt which adds an extra buffer against pathogens. I try to get away with as little salt as possible, therefore, do dads and equipment are essential in keeping optimal conditions for a successful product.

 

[salsalady]

I wouldn't start the ferment and add more chiles as they ripen because every time the jar is opened, the airlock is lost and oxygen gets into the jar.  The point of the fermentation environment is to eliminate the oxygen. 
 
I think you can do a half a jar and if you're worried about too much oxygen in the jar to start with, use one of the starters talked about in Fermenting 101.  A decent amount of head space is needed for when the pulp floats.  Glass weights can be used, or if there's enough room in the jar, just swirl the jar around every day or so to get the pulp back under the brine. 
 
Freezing until you have enough is also a good option, but then there's that whole impatience thing.... 

 

[hotstepper]

While I agree with your point, I've had little problem with opening up an active ferment and adding to it, again, as long as the vegetative matter is submerged beneath the brine, effectively making it oxygen-free. Granted, a small amount of diffusion into the surface brine by oxygen may (and surely) occurs, it is not at a level that would impede the lactobacilli's activity and endanger the ferment to invasive bacteria or fungii.

 

[Koreansoul]

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but the onggi (Korean fermenting crock) rates as a pretty nifty 'do dad' as it's been employed by Koreans for thousands of years. An old piece of technology for sure, but it does a beautiful job by design. Also, Korean fermenting (as well as many Asian pickles) tend to use massive amounts of salt which adds an extra buffer against pathogens. I try to get away with as little salt as possible, therefore, do dads and equipment are essential in keeping optimal conditions for a successful product.

 
I don't considered a pot a do dad lol. I don't think the salt is much more then what people would use in a pepper mash. Cabbage just ferments easier then peppers do.We also ferment peppers with no salt. It didn't occur to me until I was reading this forum that we ferment a lot of foods. We just usually throw it together thrown it in a jar and let it go to town.  

 

[parker49]

I wouldn't start the ferment and add more chiles as they ripen because every time the jar is opened, the airlock is lost and oxygen gets into the jar.  The point of the fermentation environment is to eliminate the oxygen. 
 
I think you can do a half a jar and if you're worried about too much oxygen in the jar to start with, use one of the starters talked about in Fermenting 101.  A decent amount of head space is needed for when the pulp floats.  Glass weights can be used, or if there's enough room in the jar, just swirl the jar around every day or so to get the pulp back under the brine. 
 
Freezing until you have enough is also a good option, but then there's that whole impatience thing....

Thanks SL. I have read the fermenting 101 and Hot sauce 101 several times and  both are great and very helpful.  I plan on doing whey from yogurt as a starter. Would some small pebbles in a ziplock bag work for weights?  I had thought about getting some glass beads but then I thought if I can do the same thing for free, why not.

 
I don't considered a pot a do dad lol. I don't think the salt is much more then what people would use in a pepper mash. Cabbage just ferments easier then peppers do.We also ferment peppers with no salt. It didn't occur to me until I was reading this forum that we ferment a lot of foods. We just usually throw it together thrown it in a jar and let it go to town.

I plan on going kind of low on the salt but as I said above using whey.  Probably also mix in some carrots, onions, and garlic.

 

[hotstepper]

Thanks SL. I have read the fermenting 101 and Hot sauce 101 several times and  both are great and very helpful.  I plan on doing whey from yogurt as a starter. Would some small pebbles in a ziplock bag work for weights?  I had thought about getting some glass beads but then I thought if I can do the same thing for free, why not.
I plan on going kind of low on the salt but as I said above using whey.  Probably also mix in some carrots, onions, and garlic.

I've only used whey starters for powders and dried peppers as I wanted more of a push for immediate chemical conversion. I'm a big advocate of using localized lactobacilli that colonize the fruits/vegetal matter directly where they've been sitting (on shelf or otherwise) before fermenting. If you're employing wheys and other prepared starters, you're introducing bacterial cultures that have most likely not evolved in that immediate environment. The local flavor, literally, gets lost.

 

[salsalady]

Thanks SL. I have read the fermenting 101 and Hot sauce 101 several times and  both are great and very helpful.  I plan on doing whey from yogurt as a starter. Would some small pebbles in a ziplock bag work for weights?  I had thought about getting some glass beads but then I thought if I can do the same thing for free, why not.

I plan on going kind of low on the salt but as I said above using whey.  Probably also mix in some carrots, onions, and garlic.

 
 
Using weights is the same principle that kimchee and sauerkraut processes utilize.  My mom made sauerkraut with a pottery crock, a dinner plate weighted down with a large jar of water, in the closet under the stairs where the hot water tank was as that was a really nice consistent warm place (the crock was covered with some kind of cheese cloth or something...I don't remember all that...)  .  We also used that same dark warm closet for making root beer. 
 
Any kind of weight will work as long as it can be properly cleaned (sanitized) before use. 
 
If there is a good air-lock type environment with the ferment (air-loc, burping daily, whatever) in a jar that can be agitated to keep the pulp under the water, I don't think weights are needed.  Most people don't use weights.  Sauerkraut sand kimchees are usually made in crocks as opposed to jars with air-locks.  The jars can be agitated with the airlock to keep the pulp under the brine.  Kimchee and 'krauts need the weights to hold the produce under the brine as shaking the crocks is really not a viable option.   

 

[parker49]

Using weights is the same principle that kimchee and sauerkraut processes utilize.  My mom made sauerkraut with a pottery crock, a dinner plate weighted down with a large jar of water, in the closet under the stairs where the hot water tank was as that was a really nice consistent warm place (the crock was covered with some kind of cheese cloth or something...I don't remember all that...)  .  We also used that same dark warm closet for making root beer. 
 
Any kind of weight will work as long as it can be properly cleaned (sanitized) before use. 
 
If there is a good air-lock type environment with the ferment (air-loc, burping daily, whatever) in a jar that can be agitated to keep the pulp under the water, I don't think weights are needed.  Most people don't use weights.  Sauerkraut sand kimchees are usually made in crocks as opposed to jars with air-locks.  The jars can be agitated with the airlock to keep the pulp under the brine.  Kimchee and 'krauts need the weights to hold the produce under the brine as shaking the crocks is really not a viable option.

Ok well then I think I will give it a try without the weights for my first batch and go from there. I have a seedling heat mat seems like i read about people using those. Thanks for the advice.

I've only used whey starters for powders and dried peppers as I wanted more of a push for immediate chemical conversion. I'm a big advocate of using localized lactobacilli that colonize the fruits/vegetal matter directly where they've been sitting (on shelf or otherwise) before fermenting. If you're employing wheys and other prepared starters, you're introducing bacterial cultures that have most likely not evolved in that immediate environment. The local flavor, literally, gets lost.

I get what you are saying completely but I think for my first batch I will keep it simple and try the whey. As I get better at it I will definitely experiment and see what I like best. Thanks again for your advice.

 

[Chili Monsta]

Through the years I have experimented with several different methods to keep the ingredients submerged.(glass disks. glass beads in a baggie, a sanitized rock etc).
But I have always returned to  what my grandma did, (and she always had something fermenting in the root cellar.)
In her open crocks she used a inverted dinner plate with a jar of water on top (like SL suggested).
When fermenting in a jar, she would put a couple cabbage leaves on top to keep the ingredients in the brine.
 
I ferment in jars (4 different sizes)...and I use the cabbage leaves all the time.....works like a charm when fitted snugly inside the jar..
The outer leaves with the stiff broad stem that grow close to the core work best.
When the fermentation is complete, just remove the cabbage leaves, discard and add additional mild brine solution if needed.
 
Cabbage is cheap, readily available, and the leaves also have an abundance of the lactic acid bacteria needed to get the whole process underway.
Note: a plastic condiment cup(inverted) will help keep the leaves  from "pushing up" too far and liquid from fouling the air lock.if you use one.
 
For "starters" ...when I decide to use one because of the combination or kind of vegetable, I normally use whey harvested from yogurt, but granted, whey does contribute to a distinctive flavor, aroma and some increased sourness.
When those attributes are undesirable (like when I'm fermenting fruits, carrots, garlic,greenbeans) I use Caldwell's starter culture, which has the live lactic acid bacteria.  It's a little pricey, but I have never...not a single time...had a problem with a ferment with Caldwells. And if I'm fermenting a couple gallons of ingredients, its an expense I can justify.
 
That being said....if all I'm fermenting is a simple Kimchi or sauerkraut recipe, I never use a starter....just salt, and I can't recall the last time I had one fail....its been decades at least.
CM

 

[parker49]

Through the years I have experimented with several different methods to keep the ingredients submerged.(glass disks. glass beads in a baggie, a sanitized rock etc).
But I have always returned to  what my grandma did, (and she always had something fermenting in the root cellar.)
In her open crocks she used a inverted dinner plate with a jar of water on top (like SL suggested).
When fermenting in a jar, she would put a couple cabbage leaves on top to keep the ingredients in the brine.
 
I ferment in jars (4 different sizes)...and I use the cabbage leaves all the time.....works like a charm when fitted snugly inside the jar..
The outer leaves with the stiff broad stem that grow close to the core work best.
When the fermentation is complete, just remove the cabbage leaves, discard and add additional mild brine solution if needed.
 
Cabbage is cheap, readily available, and the leaves also have an abundance of the lactic acid bacteria needed to get the whole process underway.
Note: a plastic condiment cup(inverted) will help keep the leaves  from "pushing up" too far and liquid from fouling the air lock.if you use one.
 
For "starters" ...when I decide to use one because of the combination or kind of vegetable, I normally use whey harvested from yogurt, but granted, whey does contribute to a distinctive flavor, aroma and some increased sourness.
When those attributes are undesirable (like when I'm fermenting fruits, carrots, garlic,greenbeans) I use Caldwell's starter culture, which has the live lactic acid bacteria.  It's a little pricey, but I have never...not a single time...had a problem with a ferment with Caldwells. And if I'm fermenting a couple gallons of ingredients, its an expense I can justify.
 
That being said....if all I'm fermenting is a simple Kimchi or sauerkraut recipe, I never use a starter....just salt, and I can't recall the last time I had one fail....its been decades at least.
CM

 
That is a great idea about the cabbage CM, i will definitely give that a try. Is the condiment cup necessary or just if it starts to push it up?  Where do you get the Caldwell's, just a grocery store? I will probably try whey the first time just to get an idea of taste process etc... but i wouldn't mind trying the Caldwell's either, i did read about other people using it.

 

[Chili Monsta]

Hey there Parker... 
I normally just use the condiment cup when I'm doing a half or gallon size jar and using an airlock.(but normally,  I only use and air lock on ferments that I plan to be in the two week range or longer)
When doing most veggie ferments of cabbage,cukes,radishes,onions,. i only let them ferment at room temps for 2-3 days before moving them to the fridge.
Note....but all of these ferments also have "significant " doses of hot pepper combo's...(fresh,frozen,dried pods or flakes/ powder)
 
As for the Caldwell's starter....you might get lucky and find a local health food store that stocks it. But you could also spend enough in gasoline to pay the shipping costs if you decide to travel looking for it on the shelf.(been there... done that)
I have done the price shopping....and regularly buy mine at:  culturesforhealth.com. They run discounted specials from time to time...and thats when I stock up.
 
The whey approach is very reliable and as close as the daily section of your local grocery.....it introduces all the important LAB...is easy to harvest, PLUS...the leftover yogurt is easily seasoned....flavored for other uses...i often mix in either a little jello or jello pudding for a nice desert topping....or blend it into some oil and vinegar for a salad dressing. 
CM

 

[parker49]

Thanks CM. I will definitely go with the whey from yogurt for now and try the cabbage on top.