• If you have a question about commercial production or the hot sauce business, please post in Startup Help.

fermenting Fermented hot sauce with wine (sulfite issue)

P

petitbleu88

Hi everyone! I'm new here and have an interesting question that I'm hoping someone will know the answer to.
 
My husband and I have been making fermented hot sauce for the past few years. We follow a recipe we got from a pepper grower. He uses white wine in his ferment, and we have really come to love the flavor that it adds to the sauce. It's not noticeable as wine by the time fermentation is done, but it does add a little something nice.
 
Anyway, we posted the recipe up on our website, and it's been a huge hit. However, a couple folks have had issues with getting the sauce to ferment, and they blame sulfites in the wine.
 
I wish I had taken note of the type of wine I used for our last batch, but I'm pretty sure it had sulfites in it. I mean, we don't buy the absolute cheapest wine for our hot sauce, but we don't spring for anything spendy--certainly not organic wine. In any case, we've never had a failure with this hot sauce method, so I tend to think it's not the sulfites that are causing the failure. However, because I can't remember what kind of wine I used, I can't say definitively that it's not the sulfites that are causing the problem.
 
Does anyone know whether sulfites in wine will kill or inhibit the bacteria responsible for fermentation in a hot pepper sauce? Obviously, sulfites are added to wine to stop fermentation and inhibit bacteria, but will they stop fermentation when added to another ferment? Any help is much appreciated.
 
Sort by date Sort by votes
:welcome: to THP petitbleu88.
 
Glad you found the forum. 
 
Can you post the original recipe or a link to the original recipe and what you are making?  That might help narrow down possible issues.
 
SL
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Yup gotcha covered. The wines I've used were barefoot white zin and Riesling. But I also use whitelab for my starter. My ferments work great tons of action. But talk with JamesN on this site he really helped me a lot with using wine for fermenting. Hope this helps. Will post my process tomorrow when I have more time will also post the pm message with JamesN method in detail. Working great for me. :)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Here's the recipe--it's more of a method than a recipe:
 
As our pepper fermentation expert says above, a lot of this is best done "by feel," and since the quantity of peppers a garden yields will vary widely (not to mention the width of fermentation vessels) we have decided to write this recipe using a simple weight ratio and a few instructive photos. As for the type of chiles to use, any kind will work as long as they are fairly hot.
So, first you should cut off the stem and a little bit of the base of each chile and roughly chop them. We do this with gloves and a pair of kitchen shears, since it means minimal contact with the peppers and no surfaces to clean. Some of you might want to seed the chilies to get more flavor and less heat from them. Jim includes seeds in his method, we did not for our first go around. Either way is fine, just keep in mind seeding will expose you to more capsacin, which you should try as hard as you can not to get on your hands, eyes, or anywhere on your skin.
hot_sauce-7.jpg
So snip off the stem-ends in the trash or compost, seed if you want, and then weigh the chilies in a bowl on a digital scale (I suppose you can just use the starting weight of the chiles if you do not choose to seed them). Remember this number and snip the chilies a slice at a time into your jar or crock. Now, take the weight of your chilies and weigh out 2% of that amount in salt, preferably sea salt (thanks Jim!). Add this to the jar/crock, along with enough white wine (prefereably a high-sugar Reisling or Gewürstraminer) to cover by a half inch or so. Mix and mash thoroughly with a pestle or wooden spoon (be sure to wash thoroughly).
hot_sauce-6.jpg
Cover the crock or jar tightly with a cloth (I screwed on the ring of the mason jar I was using) and set out on the counter where you will see it. Now, when you're making coffee in the morning, check for white mold (this is where glass jars are clearly superior) and remove with a spoon, stir the chile mixture, and cover again with cloth. Do this every other day. You will eventually see bubbles forming either on the surface or in the pepper mash. This means it's working.
Jim and others ferment this mixture for as long as it takes for the fermentation to stop, up to 4 or 6 weeks. Our very successful batch of hot sauce took only 15 days to mature into a
hot_sauce-2.jpg
 fruity, well-balanced sauce. 
Now that the pepper mash is fermented to your liking, patience-level, or whim, all you need to do is run it through a food mill. Place the food mill over a bowl, pour the pepper mash and brine into the mill, and work the flesh and seeds, rotating the handle in both directions to push as much juice from the mash as possible (discard whatever is left or dehydrate it to make homemade pepper flakes). Measure the volume of the brine liquid and add half that amount of vinegar. Jim uses brown rice vinegar for its neutral flavor profile, but feel free to experiment here with a little addition of something more flavorful, like sherry or apple cider vinegar. You shouldn't really need to add salt at this point, but do so if it tastes a little one-dimensional. Bottle and refrigerate, adding to anything that needs a nice fruity shot of heat or salt. Enjoy!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I make both red and white wine vinegar, and always use wines that say they do not add additional sulfites.( sulfur dioxide-SO2). Although small levels of SO2  occurs naturally at low levels during the process of wine fermentation It is also added by many winemakers during the fermentation stage of wine making. The purpose of the added SO2 is to retard the growth of the bacteria that naturally turns the alcohol to vinegar. But since my desired end result  is the formation of vinegar (AKA wine spoilage) I simply buy organic wines that are labeled "no additional sulfites added" when starting a new batch of vinegar from scratch.
However, once I have created a volume of "wine vinegar" along with a well established "mother" .....even wines with sulfites will still change into low pH vinegar after a couple weeks of exposure to oxygen. This leads me to believe, that the ability of the LAB to survive and prosper is dependent upon the level of SO2 and a readily available supply of carbohydrates
 
I have yet to use wine in a ferment, but there are lots of folks both here on THP and other sites, that do so regularly and from their posts consider them to be successful and flavorful ferments. At some time down the road, I intend to try one myself, but I will probably use organic wines without added sulfites.
 
Here is a link to an Iowa State Ag extension site,  that while its a little "heady" I found informative. 
And the second one is also found helpful ...mentioning which wines contains more and less SO2 along with labeling regulations.  
Judge for yourself.
 
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/wine/lactic-acid-bacteria-and-wine-spoilage
 
 
http://wine.about.com/od/wineandhealth/a/winesulfites.htm
 
 
Enjoy,
CM
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Thanks! That is helpful. I know in theory the SO2 inhibits fermentation and LAB acidification but I could swear I've been using wines with sulfites the whole time. Our last batch of pepper sauce had a little lag time--started off bubbly, then stopped bubbling for a bit. We added some whey from the top of a container of yogurt containing live cultures to give it a boost, and it started bubbling again, quite vigorously, for the remainder of fermentation. But of course, I don't know whether the sulfites in the wine caused this lag or not.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
interesting you should mention the bubbles stopping for a period of time during the ferment. Mine looks to have gone 100% dead all at once. usually after a jiggle, the bubbles come back within a day or two. Oh well, I guess its time to process! 
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
boostdemon said:
interesting you should mention the bubbles stopping for a period of time during the ferment. Mine looks to have gone 100% dead all at once. usually after a jiggle, the bubbles come back within a day or two. Oh well, I guess its time to process!
Click to expand...
how long did you allow for fermentation? After you stop seeing the release of gas it doesn't mean fermentation has stopped it is just no longer visible. But the aging is part of the process after heavy fermentation. It allows all those flavours to mellow and blend together to a gastronomic crescendo. ( APPLAUSE) :) average 45/60/90 days or as long as you can stand!
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
petitbleu88 said:
 
Here's the recipe--it's more of a method than a recipe:
 
As our pepper fermentation expert says above, a lot of this is best done "by feel," and since the quantity of peppers a garden yields will vary widely (not to mention the width of fermentation vessels) we have decided to write this recipe using a simple weight ratio and a few instructive photos. As for the type of chiles to use, any kind will work as long as they are fairly hot.
So, first you should cut off the stem and a little bit of the base of each chile and roughly chop them. We do this with gloves and a pair of kitchen shears, since it means minimal contact with the peppers and no surfaces to clean. Some of you might want to seed the chilies to get more flavor and less heat from them. Jim includes seeds in his method, we did not for our first go around. Either way is fine, just keep in mind seeding will expose you to more capsacin, which you should try as hard as you can not to get on your hands, eyes, or anywhere on your skin.
hot_sauce-7.jpg
So snip off the stem-ends in the trash or compost, seed if you want, and then weigh the chilies in a bowl on a digital scale (I suppose you can just use the starting weight of the chiles if you do not choose to seed them). Remember this number and snip the chilies a slice at a time into your jar or crock. Now, take the weight of your chilies and weigh out 2% of that amount in salt, preferably sea salt (thanks Jim!). Add this to the jar/crock, along with enough white wine (prefereably a high-sugar Reisling or Gewürstraminer) to cover by a half inch or so. Mix and mash thoroughly with a pestle or wooden spoon (be sure to wash thoroughly).
hot_sauce-6.jpg
Cover the crock or jar tightly with a cloth (I screwed on the ring of the mason jar I was using) and set out on the counter where you will see it. Now, when you're making coffee in the morning, check for white mold (this is where glass jars are clearly superior) and remove with a spoon, stir the chile mixture, and cover again with cloth. Do this every other day. You will eventually see bubbles forming either on the surface or in the pepper mash. This means it's working.
Jim and others ferment this mixture for as long as it takes for the fermentation to stop, up to 4 or 6 weeks. Our very successful batch of hot sauce took only 15 days to mature into a
hot_sauce-2.jpg
 fruity, well-balanced sauce. 
Now that the pepper mash is fermented to your liking, patience-level, or whim, all you need to do is run it through a food mill. Place the food mill over a bowl, pour the pepper mash and brine into the mill, and work the flesh and seeds, rotating the handle in both directions to push as much juice from the mash as possible (discard whatever is left or dehydrate it to make homemade pepper flakes). Measure the volume of the brine liquid and add half that amount of vinegar. Jim uses brown rice vinegar for its neutral flavor profile, but feel free to experiment here with a little addition of something more flavorful, like sherry or apple cider vinegar. You shouldn't really need to add salt at this point, but do so if it tastes a little one-dimensional. Bottle and refrigerate, adding to anything that needs a nice fruity shot of heat or salt. Enjoy!
 
Click to expand...
 
I've made a couple of batches of this recipe this fall with no problems. I don't think sulfites are an issue because wine makers add the potassium metabisulfite to the fruit juice before pitching in the yeast and beginning the fermentation process. Adding the metabisulfite to water generates sulfur dioxide gas that kills off any organisms in the wine must that might compete with the yeast. The SO2 is allowed to bleed off before pitching in the yeast to avoid killing it off as well, so there shouldn't be any problems with the LaB that might be on the peppers. If there isn't any fermentation, it's probably because the lacto-bacteria wasn't present to make it happen. I use the brine from my homemade kimchi to inoculate the mash, and don't feel I need to add any sugar since there's enough in the sweet wine to give the LaB an initial boost. Reisling is kind of expensive for me, but I found that Muscato is half the price and works just fine.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Here's the recipe--it's more of a method than a recipe:
 
As our pepper fermentation expert says above, a lot of this is best done "by feel," and since the quantity of peppers a garden yields will vary widely (not to mention the width of fermentation vessels) we have decided to write this recipe using a simple weight ratio and a few instructive photos. As for the type of chiles to use, any kind will work as long as they are fairly hot.
So, first you should cut off the stem and a little bit of the base of each chile and roughly chop them. We do this with gloves and a pair of kitchen shears, since it means minimal contact with the peppers and no surfaces to clean. Some of you might want to seed the chilies to get more flavor and less heat from them. Jim includes seeds in his method, we did not for our first go around. Either way is fine, just keep in mind seeding will expose you to more capsacin, which you should try as hard as you can not to get on your hands, eyes, or anywhere on your skin.
hot_sauce-7.jpg
So snip off the stem-ends in the trash or compost, seed if you want, and then weigh the chilies in a bowl on a digital scale (I suppose you can just use the starting weight of the chiles if you do not choose to seed them). Remember this number and snip the chilies a slice at a time into your jar or crock. Now, take the weight of your chilies and weigh out 2% of that amount in salt, preferably sea salt (thanks Jim!). Add this to the jar/crock, along with enough white wine (prefereably a high-sugar Reisling or Gewürstraminer) to cover by a half inch or so. Mix and mash thoroughly with a pestle or wooden spoon (be sure to wash thoroughly).
hot_sauce-6.jpg
Cover the crock or jar tightly with a cloth (I screwed on the ring of the mason jar I was using) and set out on the counter where you will see it. Now, when you're making coffee in the morning, check for white mold (this is where glass jars are clearly superior) and remove with a spoon, stir the chile mixture, and cover again with cloth. Do this every other day. You will eventually see bubbles forming either on the surface or in the pepper mash. This means it's working.
Jim and others ferment this mixture for as long as it takes for the fermentation to stop, up to 4 or 6 weeks. Our very successful batch of hot sauce took only 15 days to mature into a
hot_sauce-2.jpg
 fruity, well-balanced sauce. 
Now that the pepper mash is fermented to your liking, patience-level, or whim, all you need to do is run it through a food mill. Place the food mill over a bowl, pour the pepper mash and brine into the mill, and work the flesh and seeds, rotating the handle in both directions to push as much juice from the mash as possible (discard whatever is left or dehydrate it to make homemade pepper flakes). Measure the volume of the brine liquid and add half that amount of vinegar. Jim uses brown rice vinegar for its neutral flavor profile, but feel free to experiment here with a little addition of something more flavorful, like sherry or apple cider vinegar. You shouldn't really need to add salt at
this point, but do so if it tastes a little one-dimensional. Bottle and refrigerate, adding to anything that needs a nice fruity shot of heat or salt. Enjoy!
 
 
 
glad to see someone else is using jim's recipe... started a ferment this weekend following this recipe.   i have had the pleasure of meeting jim at the knoxville farmers market and have a friend that used to work at his farm..

petitbleu88 said:
 
Here's the recipe--it's more of a method than a recipe:
 
As our pepper fermentation expert says above, a lot of this is best done "by feel," and since the quantity of peppers a garden yields will vary widely (not to mention the width of fermentation vessels) we have decided to write this recipe using a simple weight ratio and a few instructive photos. As for the type of chiles to use, any kind will work as long as they are fairly hot.
So, first you should cut off the stem and a little bit of the base of each chile and roughly chop them. We do this with gloves and a pair of kitchen shears, since it means minimal contact with the peppers and no surfaces to clean. Some of you might want to seed the chilies to get more flavor and less heat from them. Jim includes seeds in his method, we did not for our first go around. Either way is fine, just keep in mind seeding will expose you to more capsacin, which you should try as hard as you can not to get on your hands, eyes, or anywhere on your skin.
hot_sauce-7.jpg
So snip off the stem-ends in the trash or compost, seed if you want, and then weigh the chilies in a bowl on a digital scale (I suppose you can just use the starting weight of the chiles if you do not choose to seed them). Remember this number and snip the chilies a slice at a time into your jar or crock. Now, take the weight of your chilies and weigh out 2% of that amount in salt, preferably sea salt (thanks Jim!). Add this to the jar/crock, along with enough white wine (prefereably a high-sugar Reisling or Gewürstraminer) to cover by a half inch or so. Mix and mash thoroughly with a pestle or wooden spoon (be sure to wash thoroughly).
hot_sauce-6.jpg
Cover the crock or jar tightly with a cloth (I screwed on the ring of the mason jar I was using) and set out on the counter where you will see it. Now, when you're making coffee in the morning, check for white mold (this is where glass jars are clearly superior) and remove with a spoon, stir the chile mixture, and cover again with cloth. Do this every other day. You will eventually see bubbles forming either on the surface or in the pepper mash. This means it's working.
Jim and others ferment this mixture for as long as it takes for the fermentation to stop, up to 4 or 6 weeks. Our very successful batch of hot sauce took only 15 days to mature into a
hot_sauce-2.jpg
 fruity, well-balanced sauce. 
Now that the pepper mash is fermented to your liking, patience-level, or whim, all you need to do is run it through a food mill. Place the food mill over a bowl, pour the pepper mash and brine into the mill, and work the flesh and seeds, rotating the handle in both directions to push as much juice from the mash as possible (discard whatever is left or dehydrate it to make homemade pepper flakes). Measure the volume of the brine liquid and add half that amount of vinegar. Jim uses brown rice vinegar for its neutral flavor profile, but feel free to experiment here with a little addition of something more flavorful, like sherry or apple cider vinegar. You shouldn't really need to add salt at this point, but do so if it tastes a little one-dimensional. Bottle and refrigerate, adding to anything that needs a nice fruity shot of heat or salt. Enjoy!
 
Click to expand...
 
 
 
 
glad to see someone else is using jim's recipe... started a ferment this weekend following this recipe.   i have had the pleasure of meeting jim at the knoxville farmers market and have a friend that used to work at his farm
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
hey folks. sorry for bumping an old thread, but im currently trying out this recipe. its the first time ive ever fermnted anything and im not really sure what im doing. i used brazilian malagueta peppers and some cheap riesling. and im pretty sure its fermenting. but theres also a lot of mold growing on it and im having a hard time removing all of it. do i have to remove all of the mold? is this stuff really gonna be safe to eat? thanks
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
i am confused as to why you aren't using an airlock in the recipe? is it possible to just let it ferment with a cloth? is the oxygen what is promoting the mold growth? sorry.. Im a noobie too
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Biggest question is what color is the mold and is it furry?

Best practice to always use an airlock. Also be sure to wash/sanitize everything before starting. Also make sure your salt content matches other factors like use of starters, wine, temperature, etc...

I saw earlier in this old thread a question about sulfites in wine. They could hinder growth, but in a bottled wine there's not much cause for worry. So2 is used to stop production of growth (yeast or nasties) when ready to bottle. Most of it turns to gas and evaporates. What is left is then mixed with your mash and diluted to the point of non issue. If using wine, you can generally cut back on salt to 2% or less.

ETA: If going with a natural ferment I'd be hesitant to add too much wine. If using starters I wouldn't worry at all. That is assuming all other aspects had been addressed correctly. ;)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
I've used wine in every ferment I've made and I've made tons!! Not one has had mold issues I always use an airlock and I use Probiotic tabs to start fermentation. As John has pointed out you can also use less salt. Natural fermentation hahaha just use the wine it's not making your ferment into some kind of unnatural monster!!
And come on people start using air locks!!! If we constantly write about the correct or successful methods and you try something different your on your own. There are tons of proven methods and most use an airlock. I keep seeing ferments going south. Just follow the guidelines in fermenting 101 and no worries! :)
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
Also, sulfite free wine is relatively cheap at Whole Foods (one of the few things there that is). If you must use wine with sulfites, be sure it contains the potassium variety because it is much less reactive in people with sensitivity. Another option is to add the wine halfway through the ferment. The PH will be lower making it safer, the alcohol will help inhibit mold growth, and the sugar will give a new food source for your LAB.
 
Upvote 0 Downvote
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top