fertilizer Fertilizer Dilution...

ELCouz said:
I'm trying to be in the big boys league (producer quality) in my garden.
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If you want to be in the "big boys league", then you need to plant more plants, not try to squeeze more production out of a fewer number of plants, by megadosing. Just saying, you are barking up the wrong tree. I don't know how new you are to growing, but the best thing that you can do, is to really understand the science of what makes plants grow. It's simpler than we make it, most of the time.
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ELCouz said:
We have very short growing season (< 3 months without a freezing night)

 
Organics (emulsion,compost,wormcastings,etc) and pellets are slow release fertilizers.
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First off, building a soil, is to incorporate slow release elements. You rely on building a microbial colony, to digest said amendments. However, you are still a few months away from the actual growing season. It's more than enough time to get organics started. I'm not trying to get you to go that route, just pointing out that there is plenty of time, if you like the option to use organics.

Secondly, fish emulsion is most certainly not a slow release product. Any kind of organic that has been emulsified or hydrolized, is, in part, immediately available. Because the particles have been broken down to their smallest feasible size, they go straight to work. I use fish fertilizers here, even when the temps drop below the 56 degree threshold for microbial activity - and yet, the plants grow.
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ELCouz said:
I read commercial blogs mostly and some hotpepper posts. 420 like forums are the worst mess around regarding facts backed opinions.
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If you read marijuana forums for pepper advice, then God help you. Those people are the main reason that most of the bullshit related to growing is propagated. They are the reason for so many ridiculous unnecessary fertilizers and amendments. There are some really sharp weed farmers out there, but they're in the minority. Most of them get suckered into the nutrient hype by the picture on the bottle.
 
Here you go. This isn't a guy that I'm overly fond of, but when someone is right, they are right. Start reading what he's posted, and then start trying to debunk it. That's when you'll start to really learn something.
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http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1392349/bloom-boosters-how-much-p-is-enough
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The tricks we think we play with plants, sometimes, aren't really anything but smoke and mirrors.
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Just wanted to draw attention to one thing of special note: (that I touched on earlier, but just noticed)
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the article said:
Evidence of phosphate overfertilizing usually always includes some degree of leaf chlorosis. P competes with iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) ions for attachment sites and causes antagonistic deficiencies of these micronutrients. Unfortunately, the deficiency of these elements causes interveinal chlorosis (yellowing), and the first thing we normally consider as a fix for yellow leaves is more fertilizer, so we give the plants a good dose of our favorite bloom-bomb which causes, no surprise - worsening of the condition.
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ah man, I'm not saying to use calcium nitrate I'm saying that putting calcium into a fertiliser is actually not difficult because you can use calcium nitrate- companies jsut don't bother for whatever reason
 
Fertiliser is really the least of your worries
Light and the quality of your soil is what you need to focus your energies on
 
In hardiness zone 5B you need to be looking into setting up an indoor grow room
 
solid7 said:
Here you go. This isn't a guy that I'm overly fond of, but when someone is right, they are right. Start reading what he's posted, and then start trying to debunk it. That's when you'll start to really learn something.
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http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1392349/bloom-boosters-how-much-p-is-enough
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The tricks we think we play with plants, sometimes, aren't really anything but smoke and mirrors.
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Just wanted to draw attention to one thing of special note: (that I touched on earlier, but just noticed)
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This is actually really poorly written and for the most of it they are barking up the wrong tree
 
"If we know that we cannot expect P to be found in higher concentrations in the roots and blooms than we find in foliage, how can we justify the belief that massive doses of P are important to their formation?"
 
Storage does not imply use. If this statement were true of humans then a regular diet would be 80% protein, 15% fat and 5% carbohydrate whereas it's closer to 20/40/40
 
"Simply limiting N limits vegetative growth, but it does nothing to limit photosynthesis. The plant keeps making food, but it cannot use it to grow leaves and extend stems because of the lack of N. To where should we imagine the energy goes? It goes into producing blooms and fruit."
 
I don't even know where to start on this one, it's just an imaginary process. Excess sugars from photosynthesis are stored as starch in the vacuoles until needed. 
 
"We know that tissue analysis of leaves, roots, flowers - any of the live tissues of healthy plants will reveal that P is present in tissues at an average of 1/6 that of nitrogen (N) and about 1/4 that of potassium (K)."
 
So why would limiting N cause it to flower when every part of the plant has equal ratios of nutrients? The hypothesis of limiting N preventing vegetative growth in turn causing flowering does not make sense. Studies done on the UPTAKE (not storage) of nutrients show that nitrogen intake actually increases during the flowering and fruiting stage
http://www.haifa-group.com/knowledge_center/crop_guides/pepper/nutritional_requirements/nutrients_uptake_curves/
 
"P competes with iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) ions for attachment sites and causes antagonistic deficiencies of these micronutrients"
 
No it doesn't. Iron, Zinc and Manganese deficiencies lower the amount of phosphorus required for toxicity. 
 
Powelly said:
This is actually really poorly written and for the most of it they are barking up the wrong tree
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Yes, I agree that it's not the best, but it's not as far off as you say.
 
Powelly said:
"If we know that we cannot expect P to be found in higher concentrations in the roots and blooms than we find in foliage, how can we justify the belief that massive doses of P are important to their formation?"
 
Storage does not imply use. If this statement were true of humans then a regular diet would be 80% protein, 15% fat and 5% carbohydrate whereas it's closer to 20/40/40
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If you were using humans as a hypothesis model, sure it would be. But that's a strawman. Comparing large and long chain molecules to individual nutrients? Come on...

Nutrient storage is absolutely used as a criteria. It's often referred to in conjunction with terms like "accumulation", "storage capacity", etc. In fact, plants are metabolically compartmentalized, based on roots, foliage, crown, etc, and testing can be conducted to see how quickly nutrients are used locally within each of these areas.
Powelly said:
"Simply limiting N limits vegetative growth, but it does nothing to limit photosynthesis. The plant keeps making food, but it cannot use it to grow leaves and extend stems because of the lack of N. To where should we imagine the energy goes? It goes into producing blooms and fruit."
 
I don't even know where to start on this one, it's just an imaginary process. Excess sugars from photosynthesis are stored as starch in the vacuoles until needed.
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Except that you are ignoring the fact that certain macro and micro nutrients become the vehicles for metabolization of said stored energy. N, being one of them.
 
Powelly said:
"We know that tissue analysis of leaves, roots, flowers - any of the live tissues of healthy plants will reveal that P is present in tissues at an average of 1/6 that of nitrogen (N) and about 1/4 that of potassium (K)."
 
So why would limiting N cause it to flower when every part of the plant has equal ratios of nutrients? The hypothesis of limiting N preventing vegetative growth in turn causing flowering does not make sense. Studies done on the UPTAKE (not storage) of nutrients show that nitrogen intake actually increases during the flowering and fruiting stage
http://www.haifa-group.com/knowledge_center/crop_guides/pepper/nutritional_requirements/nutrients_uptake_curves/
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You can't increase uptake of a nutrient that isn't present. That's the whole point of LIMITING. As in, not making it available, to begin with.

The point was that the plant, being an efficient organism, alters its nutrient cycling, based on availability.
 
Powelly said:
"P competes with iron (Fe) and manganese (Mn) ions for attachment sites and causes antagonistic deficiencies of these micronutrients"
 
No it doesn't. Iron, Zinc and Manganese deficiencies lower the amount of phosphorus required for toxicity.
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The context of the article was an overabundance of P. In a healthy plant, with proper nutrient ratios, it's not being suggested that there is an antagonistic relationship. Only when P is too high. And we know that P lockout is a real thing, so it's one attempt to explain the mechanism. I honestly don't know if that part is true or not.
 
Post any research that shows decreasing N in solanoideae causes them to flower
I searched for a good hour this morning and couldn't find anything
 
The article you linked is "broscience" and nothing more. It's one man's hallucination to justify something that they saw with their own eyes. Again, "nutrient lockout" isn't something that you'll see anywhere other than cannabis growing websites.
 
If pH is too high or low or too many salts than this can cause issues but it has nothing to do with any one element
 
Powelly said:
Post any research that shows decreasing N in solanoideae causes them to flower
I searched for a good hour this morning and couldn't find anything
 
The article you linked is "broscience" and nothing more. It's one man's hallucination to justify something that they saw with their own eyes. Again, "nutrient lockout" isn't something that you'll see anywhere other than cannabis growing websites.
 
If pH is too high or low or too many salts than this can cause issues but it has nothing to do with any one element
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I believe that you have seen nutrient lockout problems right here, in this very forum, without even knowing it. It's very hard to find information on the phenomena, as marijuana farmers have all but ensured that search engine results are chock full of their bumblings. And high P fertilizers are the bread and butter of the industry. Nobody is going to shoot themselves in the foot by suggesting that you can give container plants too much P.

You say that we can't measure a plant's uptake by breaking down its energy stores - then you go on to analogize this, by comparing human tissue composition, in terms of proteins and carbohydrates. And yet, when we ferment a fish, we don't measure the result in calories from fat or sugar, do we? No, in fact, we get a pretty decent and usable N-P-K ratio.

Let's get away from "broscience" for a minute, and talk about measuring nutrient stores in a plant. Unlike yourself, scientists seem to think that there is a correlation between storage and uptake. They sure talk about it a lot here:
http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/116/2/447.full

There is a lot of talk about measured N in raspberries over here:
http://horticulture.oregonstate.edu/system/files/u178/42_Rempel_et_al%20_N15_raspberry_JASHS_129_2004.pdf

Here's one that talks about Nitrogen "remobilization" in a N restricted evironment: (the article pertains to plant growth in a nutrient limited environment)
https://academic.oup.com/aob/article/105/7/1141/148741/Nitrogen-uptake-assimilation-and-remobilization-in

And finally, one of my favorite layman's articles, of all time. (admittedly broscience, but only so non-geeks can understand - still based on real science)
http://www.rose.org/phosphorus-fallacies-too-much-of-a-good-thing/
 
Pr0digal_son said:
You two need to start a forum where you talk about growing nice plants and don't actually do it. Similar to what goes on here,but we don't have to see it.
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I'm busy growing while you're still browsing forums, just to fend off cabin fever - all year, every year. I get that because you are only able to grow something for three months out of the year, you feel obliged to share every picture - and I think that's really sweet. But a plant not shared is not a plant non-existant ;)

Unlike some of you, I don't have the luxury of good soil, so I actually have to have some knowledge of growing. It isn't just as easy as throwing it in the ground, and watching it grow, for me.

Not sure why you are so bent about that. The OP has been part of the whole discussion, and hasn't had one bit of problem with it. And as far as that goes, nobody is actually MAKING you see any of this - just so you know. You are more than welcome to unparticipate, at any time...  :hi:
 
Powelly said:
In my "Australian fertiliser" thread there was a lad that gave a shout out to a fertliser you can pick up from walmart that is just about perfect
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yep , this was it , made by Jobes ,
HPIM2948.JPG

HPIM2949.JPG

perfect for the little ones ,      :party:
 
I actually spent the time to read through all of that, plus the citations and it does not state that the nutrients stored in the plant are in the same ratios as they are used.
 
This debate seems to be pissing other members off now, so I'm going to leave it at that for now. However I've already given the evidence that pepper plants are uptaking nutrients in different ratios than the ratios that plants store them which is what ultimately matters.
 
It's not really that difficult or complicated. Nutrients are not plant steroids and if you're fiddling around with nutrients to trigger some sort of response to trick nature- you're doing it wrong. Light? Yeah absolutely going to make a difference if you're changing things around. But not NPK. You either give them enough food, give them too much or not enough.
 
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I actually spent the time to read through all of that, plus the citations and it does not state that the nutrients stored in the plant are in the same ratios as they are used.
 
This debate seems to be pissing other members off now, so I'm going to leave it at that for now. However I've already given the evidence that pepper plants are uptaking nutrients in different ratios than the ratios that plants store them which is what ultimately matters.
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I didn't say that it was exactly the same ratios, either. I just invalidated your point that storage doesn't equate usage. We know that our own digestive systems, while being very efficient, aren't perfect. The point was to note that residual nutrients are, indeed, used as a criteria, even if that criteria wasn't made clear to the reader. You seemed to have thought that I was defending point by point what the guy wrote in the link I posted. I merely said that to read the post and start questioning its premises, was the beginning of understanding what he was writing about. I'm not a fan of the guy, but he got most of what he said, right.
 
We can't really concern ourselves if others are "pissed off" or offended by the fact that we're having a discussion.  That is their own personal problem, and not ours. (as we certainly have not gone out of our way to cause offense) This is a discussion forum, after all, and growing peppers is on topic. I'm not going to get butthurt because some passer-by had a go at us. Not the least by someone who thinks that I'm forcing them to read my posts. (next thing, I'll be making them eat too much, or do bad things to small animals and children)

In all of that, you and I have still arrived at EXACTLY the same conclusion, which is this:
 
It's not really that difficult or complicated. Nutrients are not plant steroids and if you're fiddling around with nutrients to trigger some sort of response to trick nature- you're doing it wrong. Light? Yeah absolutely going to make a difference if you're changing things around. But not NPK. You either give them enough food, give them too much or not enough.
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We might disagree about the finer points of that - such as keeping the P low - but I still maintain that there is nothing difficult about growing a pepper. And when things go wrong, flush it out, and get back to a "known good configuration" - the 3-1-2 ratio. You won't go wrong. (that's for you, OP)
 
solid7 said:
I didn't say that it was exactly the same ratios, either. I just invalidated your point that storage doesn't equate usage. We know that our own digestive systems, while being very efficient, aren't perfect. The point was to note that residual nutrients are, indeed, used as a criteria, even if that criteria wasn't made clear to the reader. You seemed to have thought that I was defending point by point what the guy wrote in the link I posted. I merely said that to read the post and start questioning its premises, was the beginning of understanding what he was writing about. I'm not a fan of the guy, but he got most of what he said, right.
 
We can't really concern ourselves if others are "pissed off" or offended by the fact that we're having a discussion.  That is their own personal problem, and not ours. (as we certainly have not gone out of our way to cause offense) This is a discussion forum, after all, and growing peppers is on topic. I'm not going to get butthurt because some passer-by had a go at us. Not the least by someone who thinks that I'm forcing them to read my posts. (next thing, I'll be making them eat too much, or do bad things to small animals and children)

In all of that, you and I have still arrived at EXACTLY the same conclusion, which is this:
 

We might disagree about the finer points of that - such as keeping the P low - but I still maintain that there is nothing difficult about growing a pepper. And when things go wrong, flush it out, and get back to a "known good configuration" - the 3-1-2 ratio. You won't go wrong. (that's for you, OP)
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Sure there is nothing difficult about growing anything ... If everything goes exactly as you want it to ...
 
Just to add for future reference...  I found a nice article (badly scanned but readable) from Maximum Yield USA.
 
Regarding the use of citric acid as a pH down and fertilizer.
 
---->>>http://msn.elcouz.net/CitricAcidarticle.pdf
 
 
tl;dr : It basically says that the citric acid is the least interacting pH down for fertilizer compared to nitric/surfuric/phosphoric.
 
Already switched (for soil application) before reading this article... I use only the phosphoric acid on my hydro setup because pH stability is needed in the water tank.
 
I was surprised to see how strong even natural lime juice is! (a tsp is enough to bring a gallon of water from 7.5 to 5.5)
 
ELCouz said:
I was surprised to see how strong even natural lime juice is! (a tsp is enough to bring a gallon of water from 7.5 to 5.5)
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It's even more incredible when you think that little teeny-tiny microbes, taking little teeny-tiny microscopic micro -shits, are able to PH buffer soils with their by-products.
 
moruga welder said:
yep , this was it , made by Jobes ,
attachicon.gif
HPIM2948.JPG
attachicon.gif
HPIM2949.JPG
perfect for the little ones ,      :party:
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So, I just read this entire thread, very entertaining... and informative too, lol.

I bought miracle gro 24-8-16 last night, but I did see the Jobes when I was there. Both are technically 3-1-2 ratio.

Is the miracle gro just basically a more concentrated version of the same ferts? Or is Jobes better for some other reason like micro nutes?
 
U)<now said:
 
 
So, I just read this entire thread, very entertaining... and informative too, lol.

I bought miracle gro 24-8-16 last night, but I did see the Jobes when I was there. Both are technically 3-1-2 ratio.

Is the miracle gro just basically a more concentrated version of the same ferts? Or is Jobes better for some other reason like micro nutes?
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more micro and the organic side , all they need when their little , other than a little cal /  mag,  also i'm just not a big fan of anything M.G. ,       :party:
 
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