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cooking General questions regarding ph, cooking, and shelf life after opening

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colima420

Greetings to all. I am starting to get into the whole hot sauce making world, and even though I have read everything I can, there are still some doubts that I hope someone can clear up.

#1 Of what I have understood so far, the PH of the sauce should be below 4.6, and preferably lower. This is so bacteria can´t grow. Question, If bacteria can´t grow in this environment, why is cooking to kill bacteria necessary? Wouldn´t the acidity alone kill them?


#2 I have noticed that some hot sauces require refrigeration after opening and others do not. The only difference I usually see is the addition of a preservative such as sodium benzoate. Question, If I add sodium benzoate to my sauce with ph below 4.6 or lower, will this hot sauce be able to stay out of the fridge after opening?

Thanks a lot.

COLIMA420
 
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Colima420
As I am also new to making hot sauces I cannot be precise on sodium benzoate as others can be. However, I can tell you that a Ph of 4.0 or lower (preferably 3.8) is whats needed to keep sauces shelf stable but generally for up to 6 months. If I'm not mistaken, cooking kills the bacteria that may already exist in the product. If your bottling the sauce you kill any left over bacteria in cap and bottle that may exist after boiling the bottle (can't boil cap). As far as Sodium Benzoate, why would you want to keep it out of the fridge? Even with Sodium Benzoate in the product people are going to put the sauce in a fridge anyways. And if they are anything like me, they will end up throwing it out a couple months after opening it. I don't even keep tobasco for longer than a month after opening it. Again, I am also new, but this is what I have gathered from people from here so far. Someone with a lot more knowledge than I can clarify better. In the meantime, welcome and have fun making your sauces.
Aaron
 
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I have been doing some scratching around on this subject as well. Just found this link which I think you might find interesting from the University of Nebraska...

"Understanding good manufacturing practices for sauces and dressings"
http://www.ianrpubs.unl.edu/pages/publicationD.jsp?publicationId=417

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Greetings colima, welcome to THP.

Nasties can still grow in 4.6pH and below sauces. It has to get down to about 3.2 in order to not need to be cooked. And even a sauce at 3.2 pH with something like fresh onion or garlic will require cooking as the garlic and onions are potentially hazardous low acid foods

There are different categories of acidity that sauces are assigned to depending on what's in the sauce and how acidic it is. I don't know all the exact numbers, but just going from products I've had tested, it's something like-

3.5 pH and below = acid food
high level of acid in the product, low levels of potentially hazardous foods, cooking may not be necessary for the product itself but hot packing is required to sterilize the bottle cap if the product is to be considered shelf stable. Usually not required to refrigerate after opening

3.5-3.8=could be an acidified food or a formulated acid food, depending on the ingredients
cooking required to kill all the nasties in the sauce and hot packing to sterilize the cap.

3.8-4.6 acidified food
cooking of sauce required, hot packing required by a BPCS-certified processor


The different classifications determine who can pack the product. acid foods and formulated acid foods can be packaged by food processors who have not gone through the Better Process Control School. Acidified foods and all other canned in glass, canned in metal, pouch packing, etc, can only be processed by a person who had completed and passed the BPCS.

Most small food processors shoot for the lower acid categories so they can make their sauces without having to go through the BPCS, which is a week long and costs ~$500.

Any sauce that is intended to be sold must go to a process authority who will review the recipe and determin how the product is to be processed to ensure the safety of the product and consumers. For home and hobby sauce makers, most shoot for 4.0pH or lower just to keep well within the safety margin of 4.6 or below. Most don't have precise pH testing equipment, so it's wise to keep a good buffer range.

As far as "refrigerate after opening" all of our labels say that even though the pH on a couple of our sauces are ~3.2pH. It's more of a liability and disclaimer thing. We keep sauces for months in the fridge, and even some like Tabasco and other commercially processed sauces for years. Aaron throws sauces out after a month, which seems a little extreme to me, but it's what he feels comfortable with for his family.

Can't speak to the sodium benzoate topic as I've never used it, and don't know anything about it.

Simon- that's a great link, I've bookmarked it.

Hope this helps.
SL
 
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Salsalady - that's a great overview you have provided and I have saved it in my email as well.

May I ask a couple of questions?

1. How do you sterilize plastic screw on bottle caps?
2. I have just ordered a pH meter - so that is on it's way. But, given the acidity of the following ingredients and the amount of sugar and salt used, what is your "gut feeling" on the relative "safety" of this recipe and potential shelf life (not holding you to anything here - I am just looking for someone with some experience to tell me if I am heading in the right direction wrt safety)...

1 part tomatoes
0.5 parts chillies
0.25 parts sugar
0.02 parts salt

Bring to boil then simmer for 15-20 minutes to reduce - stirring from the start to prevent burning.

Hot fill bottles that had been washed then heated in the oven at 120C for 45 minutes (inc metal caps).

Leave bottles to cool then put in refigerator.


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simon said:
Salsalady - that's a great overview you have provided and I have saved it in my email as well.

May I ask a couple of questions?

1. How do you sterilize plastic screw on bottle caps?
2. I have just ordered a pH meter - so that is on it's way. But, given the acidity of the following ingredients and the amount of sugar and salt used, what is your "gut feeling" on the relative "safety" of this recipe and potential shelf life (not holding you to anything here - I am just looking for someone with some experience to tell me if I am heading in the right direction wrt safety)...

1 part tomatoes
0.5 parts chillies
0.25 parts sugar
0.02 parts salt

Bring to boil then simmer for 15-20 minutes to reduce - stirring from the start to prevent burning.

Hot fill bottles that had been washed then heated in the oven at 120C for 45 minutes (inc metal caps).

Leave bottles to cool then put in refigerator.


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Click to expand...

1. To sterilize plastic lined caps, you will hot fill the bottle, screw on the cap then turn the bottle upside down for at least 5 minutes (I usually shoot for 10 or longer).

2. I think you are going to need another acidic ingredient in there (ascorbic acid, vinegar, citrus juice, etc.)
 
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yes, pH testing will confirm that. There will be some natural acid from the tomatoes, but many modern varieties of tomatoes have been bred to be low-acid tomatoes.

University Extension Services used to say it was OK to preserve/can tomatoes just with a boiling water bath. The heirloom tomatoe varieties of yesteryear had enough natural acid to process that way. Now-a-days, they say to pressure can tomatoes because of the low acid content of so many of the newer varieties.

I agree with Compmodder, my feeling is you would need some type of acid.

You could use that recipe and pressure can the sauce in a pressure cooker with regular mason jars, rings, lids, and the sauce would then be considered shelf-stable. You could leave it in the pantry, and refrigerate it after opening.

"Hot fill and hold" is a standard process for sauces. To clarify a little more, the sauce is heated to 180F minimum, the sterilized bottle is filled with the heated product, the cap is put on and then the bottle is inverted. When the heated product comes into contact with the inside of the lid, that is what sterilizes the lid.


edit- make sure to get some buffering solution to use with the pH meter. Both for calibration and for storage.
 
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Hi Simon,
Looking at your recipe your going to need to add some acid to it. If you were to ferment it you would need to bring your salt up to around 6% or more to keep the mix safe till the fermentation process started. I would recommend something like 0.25 parts Lime Juice or Rice Vinegar. They will add to your overall flavor profile nicely while not overpowering it.

If you really want to sanatize your caps and reducers in a way other than through Hot Packing then i would suggest that you get some no rinse sanatizer at a local Brew Shop and follow the label direction to soak them. Then your placing sanatized reducers and caps onto your bottles which will then be further made safe by the hot packing.

Hope that helps

Cheers,
RM

SL - Great advice +1
 
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simon said:
Salsalady - that's a great overview you have provided and I have saved it in my email as well.

May I ask a couple of questions?

1. How do you sterilize plastic screw on bottle caps?
2. I have just ordered a pH meter - so that is on it's way. But, given the acidity of the following ingredients and the amount of sugar and salt used, what is your "gut feeling" on the relative "safety" of this recipe and potential shelf life (not holding you to anything here - I am just looking for someone with some experience to tell me if I am heading in the right direction wrt safety)...

1 part tomatoes
0.5 parts chillies
0.25 parts sugar
0.02 parts salt

Bring to boil then simmer for 15-20 minutes to reduce - stirring from the start to prevent burning.

Hot fill bottles that had been washed then heated in the oven at 120C for 45 minutes (inc metal caps).

Leave bottles to cool then put in refigerator.
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Click to expand...
​

fwiw - pH for this concoction registered at 4.85

And it's bloody hard to pour the stuff down the sink... :(​
 
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No need to pitch it, you have a couple options-

add some acidity to it (vinegar, citrus juice)
keep it refrigerated
pressure can it

Anyone else think of an option for Simon?


At that pH, it wil keep in the refer for a LONG time. It's right there at the cut off of 4.6pH. It's OK to re-batch it, meaning, dump it back into the pot, add some vinegar or fruit/citrus juice of some kind a little at a time (do this cold, so it doesn't mess up the pH meter readings) test the pH and adjust if needed with a little more acid, then bring it back up to boil and hot pack it.
 
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salsalady said:
No need to pitch it, you have a couple options-

add some acidity to it (vinegar, citrus juice)
keep it refrigerated
pressure can it

Anyone else think of an option for Simon?


At that pH, it wil keep in the refer for a LONG time. It's right there at the cut off of 4.6pH. It's OK to re-batch it, meaning, dump it back into the pot, add some vinegar or fruit/citrus juice of some kind a little at a time (do this cold, so it doesn't mess up the pH meter readings) test the pH and adjust if needed with a little more acid, then bring it back up to boil and hot pack it.
Click to expand...

Right. Will try. Hope it's not too late as it is about 3 weeks old ( refrigerated the whole time) but I had a shocking stomach ache the last time I tried it.

Thanks for the advice.
 
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Adding ascorbic acid might also help lower the pH - "sour salts" are just that - harmless, natural and very acidic, but this will also dramatically impact the taste - like adding the juice of a dozen limes with 1/2 teaspoon. Not really a bad thing though as the "snappy" element of vinegar or lime juice is essentially the same flavor - I've used it in the past. It's pure vitamin C and there are several canning supply places online that you can order it from.

This is a good alternative to adding juice in that there's no organic matter, and it won't increase the volume or thin the sauce out?

Just a thought!
 
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