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recipe-help "Ground Spices" ideas for a thin sweet tomato-based sauce

L

Luke90

Hi Everyone,

Ideas to replicate a sweet tomato-based sauce but it becomes savoury as soon as I start adding spices?

One of my favourite artisan sauce producers, unfortunately, was going out of business a few years ago and I was lucky enough to purchase his last case of "Pomodoro hot sauce" (Tomato based)

I am on my last bottle and I can't imagine not having this bottle of deliciousness in my life anymore, so much so I've reached out on many social media platforms to maybe get a special batch made just for me to no avail, I am left with the only option of trying to recreate it myself.

The overall flavour profile is a big hit of sweetness followed by a touch of tomato followed then a good amount of heat that lingers. I cannot really make out any other flavours but they all work so well together.

I have tried it a few times over the years but it become more savoury than sweet. I have tried slow-cooking the onions to bring out their natural flavour, I have added lots and lots of brown sugar which helps with the sweetness but as soon as I start adding spices it becomes savoury. It does not say what the ground spices are, just spices. I have tried nutmeg and that seems to be a possibility but trying to brainstorm what else Ground spices could be.

The ingredient list is as on the bottle.
Whole peeled tomatoes (Tinned)
Brown sugar
Onion
Vinegar
Water
Ghost peppers
Salt
Garlic
Olive oil
Ground spices including mustard powder.
Xanthan gum

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Maybe contact the business that went out of business to see if they wuold sell their recipe. Sounds like they are holding on to some proprietary recipes.
 
Let's try this. Go get some cans of really good peeled tomatoes. Get the 28 oz can of Cento San Marzano DOP. The one that says "Certified" on the label. I want to see if the tomatoes are the issue here, if you're using cheap tomatoes that could be your sweetness (as well as overall taste) problem. You can always find a cheaper substitute later, but let's find out by using the best first.
 
salsalady said:
Maybe contact the business that went out of business to see if they would sell their recipe. Sounds like they are holding on to some proprietary recipes.
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I did approach them years ago as I was a huge fan, I also asked to buy the recipe when they said they would not be interested in doing a batch just for me but they gave me such a ridiculous price I would have to attach it to an IV drip for the rest of my life to make it affordable.

I did contact them before this thread again to see if they had any plans on restarting but not. I got the impression they went out of business because not many people liked all the products and they grew too quickly, holding onto lots of stock that was going out of date caused their downfall.
 
RobStar said:
Try finely ground cloves (start with a very tiny amount) and ground nutmeg or even mace. All work really well with sweet flavours. Of course so does cinnamon but you would know if it's in the original.
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Thank you for the ideas, I have tried some premade Mix spice (Cloves, nutmeg, cinnamon). It looks like they used those types because the texture/ grainy/ fine black dots look in the sauce appeared as soon as I added this.

It's Just missing that one thing still and I cannot work out what it could be. I thought maybe it is the Olive oil as that has a flavour, I have been using Extra Virgin olive oil but it is so far down the list (less than 3%- (4.5ml per 150ml)) I can not imagine thats a huge flavour profile.

I have never even heard of Mace so great to read up about that and it's on the shopping list for the next trial.
 
HellfireFarm said:
Might want to try cloves, nutmeg, allspice. Cinnamon, too, but you would probably notice that. Avoid cumin for sure if it's getting bitter, if you're not already.
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Hi, Thank you for the response. Luckily it's not bitter, there's a lot of brown sugar (37 grams per 100). I deseeded the Ghost peppers first so the overall flavour is sweet which is great.

I did try today adding a little bit of Cumin on a spoonful from the last batch and it is unfortunately not that.
 
The Hot Pepper said:
Let's try this. Go get some cans of really good peeled tomatoes. Get the 28 oz can of Cento San Marzano DOP. The one that says "Certified" on the label. I want to see if the tomatoes are the issue here, if you're using cheap tomatoes that could be your sweetness (as well as overall taste) problem. You can always find a cheaper substitute later, but let's find out by using the best first.
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Thanks, Great Idea, they have been added to the shopping list for the next trial. I did go for the cheap ones as they gave that secret away on one of their videos, the old label once said (60% tomatoes, tomato juice, acidity regulator 330) and the can I have says exactly that whereas the fancy tomato does not have those extra things.

I have been adding them once I have slow-cooked the onions, then garlic with a little bit of brown sugar to make a caramel style, then letting the whole tomatoes cook in that for a few minutes before adding the liquid and blending.
 
This should be an interesting experiment. By trying one of the best canned tomatoes you can see if that matters. I know you matched the tomato can's "stats," but if you didn't match the brand, perhaps you still used an interior product (by where they were grown, etc.). Using what is known to be good will help. And nothing wrong with using better ingredients right?

As far as spices go, there's a few reasons to hide what spices they used. One is to keep ingredients a secret. Another is to hide non-impressive ingredients or even controversial ingredients. A third reason, and my guess here is... repeated ingredients. So they used what looks like fresh garlic and onion. Perhaps they also used garlic powder and onion powder, so they figured; "Why put that when we used fresh and that is more impressive?"

The drying process tends to sweeten these a bit too, so what I would do here is lower your quantity a bit of the fresh garlic and onion and add a little garlic and onion powder.
 
The Hot Pepper said:
This should be an interesting experiment. By trying one of the best canned tomatoes you can see if that matters. I know you matched the tomato can's "stats," but if you didn't match the brand, perhaps you still used an interior product (by where they were grown, etc.). Using what is known to be good will help. And nothing wrong with using better ingredients right?

As far as spices go, there's a few reasons to hide what spices they used. One is to keep ingredients a secret. Another is to hide non-impressive ingredients or even controversial ingredients. A third reason, and my guess here is... repeated ingredients. So they used what looks like fresh garlic and onion. Perhaps they also used garlic powder and onion powder, so they figured; "Why put that when we used fresh and that is more impressive?"

The drying process tends to sweeten these a bit too, so what I would do here is lower your quantity a bit of the fresh garlic and onion and add a little garlic and onion powder.
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It sure has become an interesting experiment, more of an obsession sometimes. For someone who did not know much about how flavour profiles or how to get Heat/ Flavours at specific times the rabbit hole of exploring this has been a huge learning experience. From the first trial of just throwing everything in and boiling it up to my latest ones of a planned recipe with steps and times. Definitely a lot harder than Tabasco videos make it look.

I will definitely try the better Tomato and as you say, maybe it is even better than the original.

Clever thinking about the ground spices and the cover-up, I have never thought of that, I will also give the dried spices a try. Any idea on a % change for the fresh and dried combo? I am currently only on 70g of fresh onion slowly cooked and it makes a total of 800ml per batch.
 
No idea really I'd just scale it back and taste as I add. You don't want too much of the dried, those are really "enhancers" and not main ingredients, like salt and pepper.
 
So, nice score today, a few cans of Mutti San Marzano Tomatoes! Lady got there before me and snagged like 10 cans at 99 cents each! Peeled off the label showing the nutritional information in English, to see what the original info looked like.

That mark on the lower left is the certification that are on all of the true San Marzano From the Mount Vesuvius region. Double check me on that info though.

Thought I would share! Cheers!

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Hi,

I have had a few more attempts and could not get it where I wanted to, ran out of Ghost Peppers so I will have to try again in a few months.

Thanks for the tip on the canned tomatoes, I shall have a look next time I go.
 
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