Grow test about to start

[wordwiz]

Seventeen of my 18 seeds have sprouted (six of each type - Tobasco, Congo Trinidad and Chinese 5-Color). Starting tomorrow, I plan on a 12-week grow test to see how the plants do under different light. I have a 40-watt, 108 bulb LED panel; a 225 bulb, 13-watt LED panel; and a pair of 23-watt, 2700K CFL bulbs.

They will all receive the same amount of nuits, though I suspect I will have to water the plants under the CFLs a bit more frequently as they put out more heat than the LEDs do.

Labor Day until Christmas!

Pics this fall.

Mike

 

[Omri]

How is it an experiment? what are you experimenting with? they're all different types of technologies, so there is a certain difference in lumen output. the main difference is the different wavelengths, but I'm guessing you have no idea what's what. so basically this experiment only applies to you. what's best out of the lights YOU HAVE. different bulbs = different affect.

 

[NatGreenMeds]

Good luck Mike! I'm looking forward to seeing your results.

 

[wordwiz]

Omri,

so basically this experiment only applies to you. what's best out of the lights YOU HAVE.[/QUOTE}

Duh. That would seem pretty obvious.

The red bulbs are 650 nm and the blue ones are 465 nm.

The idea is to see how the plants grow - if they get leggy, bushy, how thick the leaves are, number of leaves, etc. I am also curious to see if aphids avoid the LED bulbs. No reason why they should but last winter/spring, I had all kinds of problems with them under fluoros but nary a bug appeared on the ones under the LEDs.

If I can sell plants at a specific event in early May, I will probably sow 400-500 seeds. I want to know which type of lights I HAVE that perform the best. Plus, it just might be that others will be interested in how they perform against east other.

Mike

 

[Omri]

Omri,

Duh. That would seem pretty obvious.

The red bulbs are 650 nm and the blue ones are 465 nm.

The idea is to see how the plants grow - if they get leggy, bushy, how thick the leaves are, number of leaves, etc. I am also curious to see if aphids avoid the LED bulbs. No reason why they should but last winter/spring, I had all kinds of problems with them under fluoros but nary a bug appeared on the ones under the LEDs.

If I can sell plants at a specific event in early May, I will probably sow 400-500 seeds. I want to know which type of lights I HAVE that perform the best. Plus, it just might be that others will be interested in how they perform against east other.

Mike

LEDs put more luminous intensity than a CFL for example. that's the difference between the two technologies. the difference you'll see is mainly affected by the wavelengths, not type of light.
Just read my first comment and it seems a bit harsh, but you know what I mean.

You know what wavelengths your LEDs put, but what about everything else?

 

[wordwiz]

Omri,

I just checked some plants and their lights. At the canopies (they are about the same - 5 inches from the bulbs) the CFL is delivering about 16,000 LUX and the 40 watt CFL about 8,000.

Tonight, when there is no ambient light, I'll try to get a rough guesstimate of the percentages of colors the CFL produces. From this page

it appears that the CFL in use creates a nice amount of red light but little blue.

Mike

 

[Omri]

Lux means practically nothing, but ok.
Every wavelength does different things. even different types of red and blue.

 

[NatGreenMeds]

Hey Mike,

I'm hoping that some of the research I've done may save you some time by sharing it with you.

First a query result for "SolarOasis" Labs: Click Here You'll find a lot of interesting data within the query results if you read each of them and use the terminology within the statements to research further information.

Secondly, here's an interesting chart that may answer some of the lighting characteristics that you're discussing:
(If you buy and use the SolarOasis RubyPro lights, your wallet will hurt initially, but your plants will love you and you'll come out ahead money-wise in the long run)

Lastly, the Micro Mols or uMols or Micro Einsteins per square of area is the relative measure of light you want to use as a comparative to lights which have the human eye spectrum's included. That measurement will allow for an accurate comparison as far as plants are concerned. The LGM5 Pro-5 sold by LED Grow Master Global (LGM) is one fine light and I'm told by them that 8 of these lights will equal the effectivness of one 400 watt HPS. The LGM5 Pro 8 light unit sells for $2,017.60 and includes 2 power supplies and 6 connection cables with the "SunMount" unit to tie them together. As you can see below, the light virtually matches the max absorption of plants in usable plant light. The average expected life span of the LED's is 11 years as opposed to the effective use of only 2 years on an HPS. The cost comparison meets at a 5 year break-even point. Years 6 through 11 are virtually free as compared to an HPS setup.

Again, good luck to you in your research.

 

[wordwiz]

Nat,

Interesting reading. Yep, that setup would wreck my budget for quite a while! Are you using it or just intereted?

Omri, why do you say Lux means practically nothing? I'm measuring how intense the light is when it reaches the plant. The sun measured 113,000 lux, the CFL 16,000 and LED 8,000. Now if half the light emitted by the CFL is in the 650 and 465 nm then it would be almost as effective as the LEDs. That's the whole idea of growing the same seeds (two of each) under three types of lights.

If the 13 watt LED is 'almost' as good as the 40 watt, then I will buy six of them instead of two 40 watters. And if the CFL comes close to matching the LEDs, then I could buy several of them for the cost of one LED. (I found 5, 23-watt CFLs on sale for $18 last winter and they may be a little cheaper now.)

I might 'think' the LEDs outperform the CFL bulbs based on how they behaved last winter/early spring but the seedlings were growing at the same time with the same temps, in the same types of containers and with the same watering regimen.

The one factor I am not taking into consideration is the distance the lamps are from the plants. IIRC, the 13 watt LED produced only about 1,300 Lux at approximately five inches. The one for this test is somewhat stronger and has more red and fewer blue bulbs.

Mike

 

[NatGreenMeds]

Nat,

Interesting reading. Yep, that setup would wreck my budget for quite a while! Are you using it or just interested?Mike

I can't afford them right now myself Mike. The price on LED's seems to be dropping pretty fast over the last two years. I'll keep using my HPS for a couple more years and see where the LED prices have gone.

As for the rest of the discussion, it's a matter of how many plant usable photons are hitting the plant per area and the ratio of the spectrum in regard to the type of plant and it's requirements and absorption rate.

The lux or lumens are measures of light that is visible to the human eye. It doesn't give a specific amount of plant usable light or exactly what the ratio between the blues and reds is. All of this is necessary to determine the *exact* benefits of any particular type of light bulb you use. However, that said, many people get along just fine using linear fluorescents or compact fluorescents, Halides or HPS, high intensity or standard intensity bulbs of whatever spectrum's. I've seen veggies grow under some pretty primitive methods. If you're looking for *perfect* plants and *perfect* conditions, then email a light manufacturer and ask them specifically what the uMols are for a specific model light and exactly what number spectrum the light has in blues and reds. Also, what amount of UV it puts out. If you're talking to the right person, that person will know the answers to those questions about any product they sell.

For a commercial operation, all of those factors could be budgeted in to see the various life spans and conditional benefits you would have. Kind of like a "bang-for-the-buck point of view.

Good luck man.

 

[wordwiz]

Nat,

The good thing about LEDs is I know exactly what spectrum of light they are emitting. Using a Lux meter and reading the specs of the lights, I can get a very good measure of how many photons of a specific wavelength are reaching the plant.

Another vital part of using artificial lights is the PAR light they provide. I realize you (and many others!) know this means light in the 400-700 nanometer range. The most useful light is the red and blue but plants also use yellow and green to a much smaller extent. Thus my fascination with the CFL lights.

My observations are not scientific but a rough approximation. The 2700K CFL bulbs that I have provide this approximation:
Red - 31%
Yellow - 27%
Green - 25%
Blue - 11%
Violet - 6%

If all I was interested in was figures, I could extrapolate the number of photons in the red range are hitting the plant, or how many green photons are.

But this is theory - I want to see, with my own eyes, how the seedlings do under the different lights. The small LED panels are only about $25 each and will easily cover a 15"x15" area. Two 23 watt CFL bulbs are maybe $8 and cover at least 10"x30". The light I'm not real sure about is the 45 watt LED. I know it will deliver 1600 Lux at a distance that will cover 30"x30" but IME this caused plants to get leggy.

I figure 12 weeks of growing will give me a great idea what lights will grow seedlings the best. Now if people are interested in growing plants that produce fruits, I would not recommend the low voltage LEDs or even the CFLs unless several are used. Of course, after the twelve weeks are up, I may switch tests to flowering and fruiting, though I have a nice tom growing with LEDs on the side and CFLs over the top, plus another in a hydro unit with only the high-power LED.

Mike

 

[NatGreenMeds]

Well, it sounds like you know the path you're on Mike. I hope you get results that are favorable to you.

 

[wordwiz]

Nat,

I simply hope I learn something!

It would be clear cut if I can report that plants under Light 1 were six inches tall with ten leaves, the ones under Light 2 were eight inches and have 12 leaves and behind Door No #3, the plants were 12 inches with 16 leaves.

So many factors to consider:
Cost of lamps
Life of lamps
Productivity of lamps
Coverage area

and probably several other aspects.

But as my grandfather told me about 45 years ago: I ain't gonna learn any younger.

Mike

 

[talas]

Hey Mike,

I'm hoping that some of the research I've done may save you some time by sharing it with you.

First a query result for "SolarOasis" Labs: Click Here You'll find a lot of interesting data within the query results if you read each of them and use the terminology within the statements to research further information.

Secondly, here's an interesting chart that may answer some of the lighting characteristics that you're discussing:
(If you buy and use the SolarOasis RubyPro lights, your wallet will hurt initially, but your plants will love you and you'll come out ahead money-wise in the long run)

Lastly, the Micro Mols or uMols or Micro Einsteins per square of area is the relative measure of light you want to use as a comparative to lights which have the human eye spectrum's included. That measurement will allow for an accurate comparison as far as plants are concerned. The LGM5 Pro-5 sold by LED Grow Master Global (LGM) is one fine light and I'm told by them that 8 of these lights will equal the effectivness of one 400 watt HPS. The LGM5 Pro 8 light unit sells for $2,017.60 and includes 2 power supplies and 6 connection cables with the "SunMount" unit to tie them together. As you can see below, the light virtually matches the max absorption of plants in usable plant light. The average expected life span of the LED's is 11 years as opposed to the effective use of only 2 years on an HPS. The cost comparison meets at a 5 year break-even point. Years 6 through 11 are virtually free as compared to an HPS setup.

Again, good luck to you in your research.

Cheers for the url nat..And very interesting reading l.e.d.s are one light source im thinking of but was worried about if they give the full spectrum of light as a reliable source..Nice

 

[Omri]

was worried about if they give the full spectrum of light as a reliable source..Nice

The standard LED grow lights you buy are not a balanced enough spectrum, but you can easily make your own.

 

[wordwiz]

Well, they are off and growing.

One tray under a 23-watt, 2700K CFL (16,000 Lux), one under a 13-watt, 225 bulb LED (1,000 Lux) and one under a 45-watt, 108 bulb LED (5,000 Lux). The light readings were taken at the top of the seed tray. It will run until Thanksgiving, approximately 13.5 weeks.

Mike

 

[NatGreenMeds]

Well, they are off and growing. One tray under a 23-watt, 2700K CFL (16,000 Lux), one under a 13-watt, 225 bulb LED (1,000 Lux) and one under a 45-watt, 108 bulb LED (5,000 Lux). The light readings were taken at the top of the seed tray. It will run until Thanksgiving, approximately 13.5 weeks. Mike

 

[wordwiz]

I'll have some pictures (and maybe a couple of pitchers) in a week. My camera does not do close ups very well and the seedlings are less than an inch tall.

On a side note, I'm reluctant to construct a grow box until I find what lights I will use. The CFL's require more spacing between shelves because of the heat; it's not a huge amount but it is significant.

Then there is the problem of not knowing for sure how many plants I need to grow. If it is just for my own use, 100 will be more than enough. But if I can sell them at this one annual event in early May, I'll need 700 or so.

Mike

Lot's of things to think about, including how tall the plants will be in 13 weeks.

 

[wordwiz]

Grow test, Part II

Since I intend to sow way more toms than peppers, and since the lights I am using the grow test allow for another tray, I decided to add a three-cell tray of toms and just sowed them.
White Beauty, Hawaiian Pineapple and Golden Morach (I'm running out of seeds!)

If they sprout in about the same time as the peppers, it should end up being about a 12-week test.

Again, the goal is to see which lights produce the best plants for transplanting. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mike

 

[wordwiz]

Results after one week:

It is hard to tell much of a difference at this early stage. Lined up, from left to right the 45-watt, 13-watt and CFL trays. The plants are Tobasco, Trinidad Congo and Chinese 5-Color. They are also left to right in each tray.

I'm posting the url because I tried to make the pictures 800 pix wide. If almost everyone here is viewing at a higher resolution, I'll resize them. From the side:
http://www.valleycat.net/garden/sideview.jpg

From the top:
http://www.valleycat.net/garden/topview.jpg

Individual cells: This is the 45-watt, more red LED
http://www.valleycat.net/garden/45watt.jpg

The 13-watt:
http://www.valleycat.net/garden/13watt.jpg

And finally the CFL:
http://www.valleycat.net/garden/cfl.jpg

Mike