Help ID nutrient deficiency - Manganese?

TXCG

TXCG

This is a new one to me & just showed up on my Aji Lemon Drop this morning. It's only affecting 1 plant so far. All the searching & checking resources for info on nutrient deficiency seems to point toward manganese (Mn). Is that what this is? And if so how do I fix it?
 
Symptoms: Interveinal chlorosis on new leaf growth, new leaves staying alive. 
 
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Source: http://landresources.montana.edu/NM/Modules/Module9.pdf
 
Pics of the problem on my plant:
 
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Since Maxibloom has Mn in it, I'm thinking it might be a pH problem? I checked the pH for the first few batches of nutrient & they came out around 6.0-6.5 which is right in the sweet spot. Since it was consistent for each batch I quit checking the pH when mixing nutes, perhaps I should quit being lazy.
 
Gonna give the plant a fat dose of carefully pH balanced nutrient solution & try to catch the runoff to check the difference. This sound like a good idea or should I just give it pH balanced water & check?
 
Great chart!!! One thing to remember is that just because its showing a deficiency doesn't have to mean the nutes aren't present...a PH imbalance can prevent the plant from taking up the nutes, so I would check that too. Pretty sure you hit it on the head though!
 
"Sharp distinction between veins and chlorotic areas"
 
To my eye that's a yes, which indicates Iron deficiency, but I don't have reference pictures to distinguish "sharp" from "not sharp" in pepper plants. All the ag resource documents focus on major crops like wheat, corn, and beans. 
 
Iron deficiency symptoms can actually be due to Cu or Ni toxicity which displaces Fe. Have the plants had Copper based treatments applied recently?
 
PepperWhisperer said:
"Sharp distinction between veins and chlorotic areas"
 
To my eye that's a yes, which indicates Iron deficiency, but I don't have reference pictures to distinguish "sharp" from "not sharp" in pepper plants. All the ag resource documents focus on major crops like wheat, corn, and beans. 
 
Iron deficiency symptoms can actually be due to Cu or Ni toxicity which displaces Fe. Have the plants had Copper based treatments applied recently?
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No Cu treatment, all plants have been fed Maxibloom all season which is complete in primary, secondary & micro nutrients which is why I think its probably pH problems since everything should be present in the fertilizer. The only other things that have been applied are Spinosad (early in the season for thrips) & safer soap for aphids. This plant didn't have problems with either thrips or aphids so I don't think it was even sprayed.
So more info on the differences between Fe & Mn deficiency:
 
Source: http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg/damage/key.html
 
This source does a better job of describing the sharp distinction. Sounds like with Fe deficiency only the large veins stay green while with Mn the small veins stay green producing a "netting" effect.
 
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Either way both sound like they can be caused by high pH. 
 
So next course of action is going to be applying pH adjusted something & measuring the run off. Should I apply pH balanced nutes or should I just go with pH balanced water for now? 
 
I'm growing in promix bx which has no nutrients in it so everything comes form the liquid fertilizer.
 
how hard are you feeding? i know alot of people growing peppers think these plants are severly intolerant of fertilizers. its possible you are just feeding too lightly?
maxibloom/grow/floramato is pimp. im suprised you are having problems with it tbh.
 
Wow... I just used your chart to identify what could possibly account for the funk that many of my plants fell into... and are just now recovering from...  Boron difficiency
 
queequeg152 said:
how hard are you feeding? i know alot of people growing peppers think these plants are severly intolerant of fertilizers. its possible you are just feeding too lightly?
maxibloom/grow/floramato is pimp. im suprised you are having problems with it tbh.
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I'm doing 1tsp/gallon of water every watering (1-2x a week as needed) and giving plain water once every other week. This is the first sign of deficiency, all other leaf problems up to this point were pest related (curling, shriveling & stuff) that disappeared after I ran the aphids off.
 
I did just transplant this plant into a new larger container recently & gave it a feeding when I did that. Moved from a 5 gallon pot to a 15 gallon pot but same media, just promix bx with a touch of compost & some perlite to balance the compost. The other 2 transplanted plants aren't showing any symptoms.
 
So queequeg, what would you recommend as next action? A good dose of pH balanced nutes or a good flushing with pH balanced water? I'd like to compare input pH vs runoff, just not sure if I should try feeding or just try correcting the pH.
 
I also have some kelp fertilizer left over from when they were seedlings, apparently kelp is good for foliar feeding to correct micronutrient imbalance. Supposedly good for iron & manganese which are the two suspects. 
 
Upon further investigation... it could even be Boron over-does as the symptoms are identical, and the difference between levels that cause diffieciency or over-dose is so little.  However, pictures of calcium difficieny look more like the problem I was having.
 
TXCG said:
So queequeg, what would you recommend as next action? A good dose of pH balanced nutes or a good flushing with pH balanced water? I'd like to compare input pH vs runoff, just not sure if I should try feeding or just try correcting the pH.
 
I also have some kelp fertilizer left over from when they were seedlings, apparently kelp is good for foliar feeding to correct micronutrient imbalance. Supposedly good for iron & manganese which are the two suspects.
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do you have an ec meter? you could just measure the conductivity of your runoff to determine if you are reaching a decent EC. likewise you could measure the Ph the same way... however im not a big... worrier... about PH.
im a proponent of KISS... i basically do not monitor ph at this point. all i know is that it is between 5.5 and 6.5, and this is enough for me. since you are using promix i think you can assume that your lime charge is fine... likewise since you are not using anything crazy like squid juice sugar aerated soup stuff, i would not bother ph balancing the nutrient solution agressivly.

just dip some good litmus paper like i do... hold it up to a constant source of light like a 4200k cfl(the bulbs in my outdoor lights) and get a feel of the ph going in. the ph going out... i dont bother monitoring.


well, i would check the ec of the runoff. i learned a while back... when working with ponic toms, that it does take a good while to buildup a fertilizer charge within a large container like the 10 gals im using.

what happens with toms is... below 2ec they get real leggy and do not set fruits agressivly, at like 3-4 they stop growing suckers and set fruits like you would not believe... only growing literally an inch or so a week.

this takes a while tho, like a week of fertigation at 2ec. what happens is the plants are drinking the water,and leaving some fertilizer behind, causing it to build up in the peat lite... when the runoff water is like 3ec,i adjust the watering cycles a bit longer to force a decent amount of runoff each day. this runoff will remove the built up salts, but it will not wipe out the fertilizer charge...

whenever i get a good rainfall it basically wipes out the fertilizer charge completely however, and the process retarts...

what im thinking is you may have not charged your promix just yet, i would wait a week or so before making any drastic changes. just wait for a bit. if i go back and look at my toms, i can see chlorosis after one of those huge rainstorms we had a week or so back here in Houston , but its only in one maby two nodes, as it takes time to recharge the peat lite.
 
queequeg152 said:
do you have an ec meter? you could just measure the conductivity of your runoff to determine if you are reaching a decent EC. likewise you could measure the Ph the same way... however im not a big... worrier... about PH.
im a proponent of KISS... i basically do not monitor ph at this point. all i know is that it is between 5.5 and 6.5, and this is enough for me. since you are using promix i think you can assume that your lime charge is fine... likewise since you are not using anything crazy like squid juice sugar aerated soup stuff, i would not bother ph balancing the nutrient solution agressivly.

just dip some good litmus paper like i do... hold it up to a constant source of light like a 4200k cfl(the bulbs in my outdoor lights) and get a feel of the ph going in. the ph going out... i dont bother monitoring.


well, i would check the ec of the runoff. i learned a while back... when working with ponic toms, that it does take a good while to buildup a fertilizer charge within a large container like the 10 gals im using.

what happens with toms is... below 2ec they get real leggy and do not set fruits agressivly, at like 3-4 they stop growing suckers and set fruits like you would not believe... only growing literally an inch or so a week.

this takes a while tho, like a week of fertigation at 2ec. what happens is the plants are drinking the water,and leaving some fertilizer behind, causing it to build up in the peat lite... when the runoff water is like 3ec,i adjust the watering cycles a bit longer to force a decent amount of runoff each day. this runoff will remove the built up salts, but it will not wipe out the fertilizer charge...

whenever i get a good rainfall it basically wipes out the fertilizer charge completely however, and the process retarts...

what im thinking is you may have not charged your promix just yet, i would wait a week or so before making any drastic changes. just wait for a bit. if i go back and look at my toms, i can see chlorosis after one of those huge rainstorms we had a week or so back here in Houston , but its only in one maby two nodes, as it takes time to recharge the peat lite.
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Got an EC truncheon & a hannah PH meter. I did check the EC of the 1tsp/gallon solution but I don't remember what it was. I'll do it again when I get home today. Haven't checked runoff yet, might be a bit of a pain in the ass with these big grow bags but I think I can find a container to catch it.
 
I'll give it a good feeding & measure ec & ph in vs out & post back with results when I get a chance. If not this evening (working late) then definitely tomorrow morning. 
 
Since it's a fresh transplant & only been fed once maybe you're right about it just not having time to build up a charge. It's basically in 10 gallons of fresh mix & 5 gallons of well fed mix in a 15 gallon pot. Thanks for the advice man!
 
next time you are at lowes/HD pick up some of those half thick cinder blocks. i use 2 of those for my 10 gallon bags, i think one might work, but i use 2. they are like 80 cents a pop i think? couple of bricks work also.

the ideal thing would be to put some sort of plastic piece under them, then set out cups to collect runoff, but ive not found anything cheap and or convinient to use for that...

ideally you would cover the tops of the bag too to prevent rain from running off with all your fertilizer, but again its not something ive found an easy solution too.

when im looking to collect runoff, i simply pull the containers such that a corner of them is hanging off the cinder blocks, slope being ideal, runoff will come out and trickle off the corner of the bag. set a dixie cup out there and collect it at the end of the day. provided there is no rain,
edit: these are what im talking about
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Alright, so when I got home I put on my lab coat & did some science. I propped that big ass root pouch up on three 5 gallon buckets with a cooler to catch the runoff. 
 
Then made some nutrient solution & measured the EC & pH. I used my normal 1tsp/1gallon so 2 tsp into the watering can, filled to the brim, stirred for a bit & then measured.
 
1)pH=6.26 EC=1.5
After 2 gallons there was 0 runoff
 
2)pH=6.27 EC=1.5
After 4 gallons there was 0 runoff but the bag was was starting to feel wet on all sides
 
3)pH=6.26 EC=1.5
After 6 gallons I got a got a decent bit of runoff, it was pretty brown
 
Runoff: pH=6.00 EC=2.6 
 
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Then I moved it back where it belonged & almost had a hernia lol.
 
whelp, id wait a few to see if the new growth is any different.  take it one step at a time.
 
keep in mind that smart pots are insanely thirsty and they will dry out mad fast. you need to either water with fairly dilute solutions or alternate tap and fert.
 
i would not stray past 3 ec. get a bit of runoff from now on, shoot for about 5-10% by volume id say.
 
im sure you know how to recognize fert burn, but its not going to happen at 2-3ec even with the youngest of plants.
 
if you want to know the ec of the mix and not accumulated runoff+fert solution, water in JUST enough pure distilled water to get a measurable amount of runoff. distilled water will not contribute to conductivity appreciably. get distilled & deionized if possible.
 
I have other Aji Baccatum plants that do that no matter what soil i've had them in, the Aji Habanero is a classic example (baccatum type of course).
 
Imho certain plants are just prone to it on their new growth, but they've always greened up and grew out of it, a few leaves may retain a little spottiness.
 
I would just wait to see if it greens up, and don't intervene with anything too extreme. If you try anything, do it in smaller doses.
 
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