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Help with applying neem oil

Swinglish

Swinglish

Can someone talk me through the process of applying neem oil to my chilli plants that have spidermites and thrips infestations. I have some organic 100% cold pressed neem oil, some dish soap (green fairy liquid) and a spray bottle. What are the ratios for mixing 1 liter at a time? And how often to apply? I have been reading across the internet but see to many conflicting instructions and advice.
 
You don't ever want to use dish soap.  You use actual soap on plants, not detergent. (look for Dr. Bronner's)  I have (especially recently) seen some really bad things happen with people using detergent instead of soap.  I used to say use it if that's what you have, but I will no longer give that advice.
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The reason you see conflicting advice, is because there are different types of Neem available.  I always use cold pressed.  Being such, you have to use the soap as an emulsifier.  Some Neem has surfactants already added to make the product water soluble.  But cold pressed will never work in plain water.
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2Tbsp of Neem and 1Tbsp of soap per 2 gallons of water.  That's how I mix it, with much success.
 
My very limited knowledge on neem oils....
 
As far as neem oils go.... cold pressed (includes azadirachtin) and clarified hydrophobic extract of neem oil(has no azadirachtin) are the 2 available for pest control. This confuse me slightly, as both are derived from the neem seed, and both do more or less the exact same job very well.
 
Clarified neem has no azadirachtin in it.
 
Azadirachtin is suppose to disrupt the insect life cycle/feeding/egg laying/etc, but supposedly only affects the larval stage of insects..?.
 
Clarified neem supposedly contact kills aphid/mite/white fly/etc, and many adult soft bodied insects,in larval stage, adult and eggs.
 
Seems the cold pressed neem with added mild soap for a surfacant, has both active ingredients, So probably better to use, but maybe much more sensitive to uv damage susceptibility than the clarified neem so nite spraying is recommended. Night spraying is not for everyone.
 
I have both and have used both and imo don't see any difference in outcome. They both kill the pests that affect pepper plants. But have no way to know if the life cycle of the mites that have been pestering me lately has been interrupted. There are not any visable signs of them on my plants after a few drenching clarified neem spray jobs.
 
If clarified neem contact kills aphid/mite/whits fly/etc, and many adult soft bodied insects,in larval stage, adult and eggs, not sure why the Azadirachtin is needed at all..?
 
Both type neems need a surfacant to work. Many clarified neems already include one in their mix. Cold pressed neem does not and needs a mild soap to be added when mixing.
 
jmo
 
 
 
Clarified Neem only works on contact. It's pretty much tits useless, unless you spray it directly on an insect, and at that point, you may as well just use soap, and save some $.
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It's a by-product of things that use the actual helpful ingredient.  Extract that aza, then toss the oil.  Or, sell it at a premium.  Hmm, corporate choices...
 
Hello.  I have been using the cold pressed neem with azadirachtin at the rate of 1 tsp per 1 quart spray bottle along with a little less (maybe 1/2 tsp) Dr. Bronners peppermint soap.  Pure soap is what you want.  I always shake the spray bottle and see that the neem stays emulsified for a little while.  It will eventually float back to the surface so shake every now and then while spraying.
The instructions on the bottle that the neem came in say to mix 1-2 tablespoons neem and 1-3 teaspoons soap to 1 gallon water.  Soaps vary so start with less soap.
What I use has never harmed the plants and seems to have worked on the pests.  (slowly though)
Looks like 1 quart = .94L so that should be close.
Hope this helps.
 
solid7 said:
Clarified Neem only works on contact. It's pretty much tits useless, unless you spray it directly on an insect, and at that point, you may as well just use soap, and save some $.
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It's a by-product of things that use the actual helpful ingredient.  Extract that aza, then toss the oil.  Or, sell it at a premium.  Hmm, corporate choices...
Click to expand...
 
You might be right...
On that same train of thought, why use any type of neem then,, if soapy water does the same thing, kills on contact. Whats the benefit of azadirachtin..? it is suppose to disrupt the insect life cycle/feeding/egg laying/etc, but supposedly only affects the larval stage of insects. But if the pests are already dead from contact of soapy water, what does that life cycle interruption even matter, they are dead,, yes..?
 
acs1 said:
 
You might be right...
On that same train of thought, why use any type of neem then,, if soapy water does the same thing, kills on contact. Whats the benefit of azadirachtin..? it is suppose to disrupt the insect life cycle/feeding/egg laying/etc, but supposedly only affects the larval stage of insects. But if the pests are already dead from contact of soapy water, what does that life cycle interruption even matter, they are dead,, yes..?
Click to expand...
 
There's a lot error built on error, there.
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Aza does not affect only the larval stage.  It affects ANY stage, where ingestion occurs.  Some insects may only eat at the larval stage. i.e., caterpillars.  Others, such as whitefly, actively feed at all stages.  The point is to kill or maim the primary recipient.  Secondly - the soap in the Neem is an emulsifier, and does not (necessarily) kill on contact.  When you have emulsified something in soap, it's no longer just soap.  Nor is it just oil.  You want soap to work like soap, use it straight.  Same with oil.   Put them together, and you have a different weapon.  Thirdly...  Even if you kill some stuff on contact, what does that matter when the next batch comes crawling, creeping, dropping, or flying in?  Soap and oil that coat the main offenders, are completely useless against the ones that weren't there during application.  Enter the active ingredient...
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Last, but certainly not least...  When you have conquered the offenders, Aza is a fantastic repellant.  It isn't permanent, and it doesn't last long.  But it's better than almost anything you'll get, without applying something that would repel you, too.  I have had plants that are whitefly free for months after, and aphids are a complete non-issue in my garden, except for the first wave in the spring...
 
solid7 said:
 
There's a lot error built on error, there.
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Aza does not affect only the larval stage.  It affects ANY stage, where ingestion occurs.  Some insects may only eat at the larval stage. i.e., caterpillars.  Others, such as whitefly, actively feed at all stages.  The point is to kill or maim the primary recipient.  Secondly - the soap in the Neem is an emulsifier, and does not (necessarily) kill on contact.  When you have emulsified something in soap, it's no longer just soap.  Nor is it just oil.  You want soap to work like soap, use it straight.  Same with oil.   Put them together, and you have a different weapon.  Thirdly...  Even if you kill some stuff on contact, what does that matter when the next batch comes crawling, creeping, dropping, or flying in?  Soap and oil that coat the main offenders, are completely useless against the ones that weren't there during application.  Enter the active ingredient...
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Last, but certainly not least...  When you have conquered the offenders, Aza is a fantastic repellant.  It isn't permanent, and it doesn't last long.  But it's better than almost anything you'll get, without applying something that would repel you, too.  I have had plants that are whitefly free for months after, and aphids are a complete non-issue in my garden, except for the first wave in the spring...
Click to expand...
 
Interesting,,, thanks for squaring me away, new at this and still learning...
 
Have read my bottle of cold pressed carefully, as well as many articles on cold pressed. My take away was, cold pressed neem oil, once mixed with water and soap, has a half life of 2 hours(?). Nowhere have I seen in print (yet) that cold pressed has a repellent property. Not saying it doesn't, I respect your experience with it, and if you say it does I believe you.
 
Next spray I'll use cold pressed again, the small bottle of clarified is pretty much gone, and won't be getting another.. Will be nice not to have to preemptively spray every 2 weeks and still be pest free, especially those destructive, mite carrying, Florida white flies...  How often do you spray with cold pressed..?
 

 
 
acs1 said:
Next spray I'll use cold pressed again, the small bottle of clarified is pretty much gone, and won't be getting another.. Will be nice not to have to preemptively spray every 2 weeks and still be pest free, especially those destructive, mite carrying, Florida white flies...  How often do you spray with cold pressed..?
Click to expand...
 
Every 10-14 days. :)
 
Every plant, wherein I have effectively eradicated a problem, the target pest has been very deliberate to not come back, or only come back after much time.  I have seen Neem and Azamax claim that they have a deterrent effect after being applied, but I'm not going to search that out to prove it.
 
solid7 said:
 
Every 10-14 days. :)
 
Every plant, wherein I have effectively eradicated a problem, the target pest has been very deliberate to not come back, or only come back after much time.  I have seen Neem and Azamax claim that they have a deterrent effect after being applied, but I'm not going to search that out to prove it.
Click to expand...
 
On a side note,,, when I sprayed with cold pressed neem last spring, seemed my flowers got damaged, or at least the pistils fell off. The clarified neem doesn't do that. this is my anecdotal experience of a 1 time drenching over/under spray soaking with cold pressed. Is this the norm for cold pressed and flowers..?
 
 
Not for me.  But it does seem that you've learned some things since you started frequenting the forum.  So I'm guessing that maybe what you knew/did last spring, might not overlap exactly with what you know/do today.
 
That's the problem if you get cold pressed Neem oil which is (normally) used for cosmetics etc...that it doesn't say about the recommended dosages for plants!
 
I am using insecticidal soap and Neem oil for years, but I always use a product which is made for plants with 3.2% azadirachtin. There are tons of these products out there (Azamax, whatever), depending where you live. In my case, it requires only 1ml/L...so if I put this in my hand sprayer this is only 5-7 drops.
 
I spent quite some time "researching" (aka geeking) about the right use of Neem and insecticidal soap, and found something interesting:
 
Mind you, this applies only to the product I am using, and may be different for your Neem oil.
 
* For best results, the Neem/water sprayer solution should have a pH of 4-6. The problem is: Soap, ANY soap, has a very high pH. I have in the past mixed my Neem oil drops with the insecticidal soap thinking it would be perfect as soap is an emulsifier. But the mix will have a very high pH of 8, and then would need a ton of "pH down" to get it to the recommended lower pH.
 
Until I found that the Neem oil product I use already contains an emulsifier, means it's WATER SOLUBLE. (It even says on the bottle. Normal Neem oil may not be water soluble!)
 
I concluded that it is better to just mix my drops in water (this is also the recommended use as per instructions), and not make a insecticidal soap/Neem mix.
 
** But: Know that Neem isn't immediately acting, it's more a prevention thing. If you have an infestation, you can as well spray just insecticidal soap. It'll kill the bastards as well.
 
Also..in the years I am using insecticidal soap and Neem, I have never had a problem with plants, it is really very safe to use.
The good thing: Thrips, white flies, spider mites...they are very common and I get them..ALWAYS. But they are super-easy to get rid of with insecticidal soap and/or neem.
 
flexy123 said:
That's the problem if you get cold pressed Neem oil which is (normally) used for cosmetics etc...that it doesn't say about the recommended dosages for plants!
Click to expand...
That's why you don't buy any Neem oil that's "for" something.  If you just buy plain old Cold Pressed Neem, it's a done deal.  You can't get any more Neem oil than Pure Neem oil. And 2 Tbsp Neem to 1 Tbsp soap for every 2 gallons of water, is pretty universal.  I've tried about a half dozen brands of Neem, including Dyna-Gro.
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There are lots of pure Neem vendors on places like Amazon. It's crazy to pay premium prices for products that are marketed by fertilizer companies.
 
I'm assuming it's normal for cold-pressed neem oil emulsified with a gentler soap like Dr. Bronners to eventually float to the top of the bottle with time after it's been mixed up?
 
I'm wondering if maybe the oil not emulsifying properly could be why it doesn't seem to be working all that well against broad mites, because a thorough weekly spraying doesn't seem to be reducing their numbers or damage much at all.
 
Takanotsume said:
I generally use most of it immediately after it's been mixed and store indoors in a dark place.
Click to expand...
 
Your question made it sound like you were storing it.  Neem MUST be used immediately after mixing.  It begins to biodegrade almost immediately.  So you want to get it applied, and sprayed, so it can begin to work before it loses potency.
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Never ever store it after mixing.
 
I should've specified that even shortly after shaking it up, the neem oil tends to settle back to the top of the mixture within about a minute when using a 2:1 teaspoons ratio of neem to Bronner's soap in a quart of water.
 
I haven't been too particular about the type of water I've been using, though (It's either filtered tap water or unfiltered from the hose), but I'm not sure if that makes a difference or not.
 
Did you mix the neem and soap in a very small amount of WARM water before adding it back to the mix?
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Emulsified Neem stays so, for a very long time. It shouldn't be falling out of emulsion before your very eyes.  The mix should be an off-white to tan-ish color, with a milky opacity.  There may be a very small amount of oil that floats to the surface, but it's minimal.
 
I haven't been doing that, so that probably is the issue,
 
Hopefully that's the reason why it hasn't been quite as effective I might've liked.
 
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