preservation Homemade Lime Vinegar

[turbo]

I'm one of the (very) few around here that likes vinegar and vinegar based sauces.  I've played around with a lot of different vinegars in hot sauce, but haven't heard of lime vinegar until I ran across this article.  Most of my sauces have salt and lime juice, so using a lime vinegar sounds pretty interesting. 
 
http://zesterdaily.com/recipe/pucker-up-for-lime-vinegar-recipe/
 
I'll post pictures of the vinegar and eventually the hot sauce recipe in this thread.

 

[smallzi]

Well, this thread certainly piqued my interest...so much so that I spent about the last 4 hours reading about aerobic acetobacter fermentation.
 
I have a background in environmental bioremediation, so i'm familiar with these processes to a certain extent.
 
That being said, I fear that your recipe will not yield the desired result.   "Bugs," as we call them, do some magical things, so i wouldn't write the experiment off just yet.  I will say however that acetic acid producing bacteria tend to thrive in an aerobic aqueous environment with a pH between about 5 and 7.   Like all organisms, their growth rates will be impacted by swimming in too much of their own "shit."
 
Vinegars, as you well know, start with a solution of sugars and water.   The sugar is converted into ethanol by yeast, and the ethanol is then oxidized by bacteria to yield acetic acid.     The "scoby" in kombucha is actually a symbiotic mass of yeast and bacteria, and can actually be used as a "mother" for sugary vinegar feedstocks.
 
The reason i'm skeptical about the above recipe is that lime juice has such a low pH that ethanol synthesis is unlikely to occur via the action of yeast.   With no ethanol, there can be no acetic acid by way of "mother."
 
A suggested workaround (should the above method fail) would be to dillute the lime juice with a simple syrup.    This would provide a better feedstock for the yeast during the anaerobic phase, while also raising the pH to a more acceptible level.
 
As an aside, after reading this thread, I decided to try to make cognac vinegar.
 
solution A (6% ethanol by volume) is composed of the following:
100mL 80 proof cognac
550mL distilled water
16 mL Braggs unpasteurized unfiltered vinegar "with mother"
 
solution B (6% ethanol by volume) is composed of the following:
100mL 80 proof cognac
560mL distilled water
10mL kombucha "scoby"
 
 
</two cents>

here are some links that might be helpful:
 
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/pdf/5346.pdf  - Ohio State University Extension - "making cider vinegar at home"
http://chemistry.about.com/od/foodscienceprojects/a/How-To-Make-Homemade-Vinegar.htm -  Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid_bacteria
 
also i should add that my cognac experiment will be held at a temperature of 80F, in glass vessels, and shaken once weekly to increase DO (dissolved oxygen concentration).
 
-Matt

 

[turbo]

smallzi, I agree.  The original recipe that I posted isn't really a true vinegar, since vinegar is just the byproduct of a fermentation of ethanol.  The recipe has no ethanol and is just lime juice and salt.  Its really just a variation on Moroccan pickled limes (yum!).  Also as smallzi mentioned, even with added ethanol, the pH may be just too low.  I read that limes have a pH level around 2 - 2.8, and the process of making vinegar needs a pH between 4 - 6'ish.
 
Another interesting thing I just ran into, is that limes pH values actually go down (marginally) after they are juiced and hang out for a few hours:  http://www.alcademics.com/2013/12/how-the-ph-of-lime-juice-changes-as-it-ages.html
 
But, all that being said.  I'm totally excited to see how everyone's versions are going to come out.

 

[RocketMan]

Smallzi, do you think the introduction of a Lactobacillus bacteria as we use in the fermentation process of peppers would have a better affect. Perhaps not giving us a true Vineger but something close where the sugars have been converted to Lactic Acid.

 

[foodproductlaunch]

Smallzi
 
Thanks for the detailed explantion.  I was wondering as well what happened to the salt in the fermentation process of making a lime vinegar, as I know that most (if not all) vinegars contain no sodium.  So...when maybe making a lime based vinegar, the base ingredient should be limeade as opposed to lime juice and salt?  Or sugar added to pure lime juice and hold the salt?

 

[foodproductlaunch]

 
After 6 days.  I'm just letting it sit.  

 

[RocketMan]

LOL mine seperate that way too, must be doing something right.

 

[foodproductlaunch]

LOL mine seperate that way too, must be doing something right.

 
Either we're both doing something right...or ....

 

[smallzi]

Smallzi, do you think the introduction of a Lactobacillus bacteria as we use in the fermentation process of peppers would have a better affect. Perhaps not giving us a true Vineger but something close where the sugars have been converted to Lactic Acid.

 
Lactobacillus probably would achieve that effect, but again the pH of that solution is far too low for them to thrive.   If you added a base to the mix, it might be possible, but then you're converting citric acid into a salt, which will inevitably destroy the lime flavor.
 

Smallzi
 
Thanks for the detailed explantion.  I was wondering as well what happened to the salt in the fermentation process of making a lime vinegar, as I know that most (if not all) vinegars contain no sodium.  So...when maybe making a lime based vinegar, the base ingredient should be limeade as opposed to lime juice and salt?  Or sugar added to pure lime juice and hold the salt?

 
I'm fairly certain that the salt in that recipe is designed to create an environment that is unfavorable to undesired microbes.   It's just like the introduction of salt in lactofermented pepper mash reduces the viability of mold, coliform, and other nasties.
 
The more I read about citrus vinegar, the more it becomes clear that citrus juice is mostly added as a flavoring rather than being a feedstock.
 
That being said, science thrives on uncertainty, and I'm not certain about most of what i've posited on this thread.   I eagerly await the results of your experiments.

 

[turbo]

Ok...its been almost 6 weeks and so I took my jar of "lime vinegar" out of the cabinet.  It looked like it separated a bit with some residue in the bottom 1/3 of the jar, so I ran it through some cheese cloth to pull out the bigger bits. 
 
Look: I didn't bother to take a picture because it looks pretty much the same as it did when I bottled it. 
 
Taste: Argh!  Sour.  Really sour.  Holy crap thats sour.  More sour than the fresh lime juice 6 weeks ago.  Its also a noticeably salty, though the acidity overwhelms.  
 
Not sure how I'm going to use this (or if I'll use it).  Its way too powerful for cooking or cocktails.  It still might work to add acidity to a hot sauce, but it didn't really age and mature into something better than just plain ole salt and lime juice. 

 

[RocketMan]

Yeah turbo, last time I looked at mine, over the weekend, it was the same, salty sour lime.

 

[howardsaz9]

Ok...its been almost 6 weeks and so I took my jar of "lime vinegar" out of the cabinet.  It looked like it separated a bit with some residue in the bottom 1/3 of the jar, so I ran it through some cheese cloth to pull out the bigger bits. 
 
Look: I didn't bother to take a picture because it looks pretty much the same as it did when I bottled it. 
 
Taste: Argh!  Sour.  Really sour.  Holy crap thats sour.  More sour than the fresh lime juice 6 weeks ago.  Its also a noticeably salty, though the acidity overwhelms.  
 
Not sure how I'm going to use this (or if I'll use it).  Its way too powerful for cooking or cocktails.  It still might work to add acidity to a hot sauce, but it didn't really age and mature into something better than just plain ole salt and lime juice. 

Turbo.. sorry for waiting so long to reply.. the new job has me jumping thru hoops..
anyway I dont actually make the vinegar but I use other vinegars and flavor them with other stuff.. one of my favorites is champagne vinegar and adding basil or peppers for a week or so till the flavor is infused. i then filter out the flavorings
if you leave them in too long they will cloud the final product. You can infuse oils the same way but those require heating for a bit.
If you just want the flavor of the limes I would use a zester to remove the outer skin where the essential oils are and add that into the vinegar for a week or so. Depending on the limes you could get a lot of flavor or not much. after that you could add in the lime juice to balance the mixture. I did the zest and juice for lime infused salt and that worked well. the salt infusion is very easy also and makes great margaritta glass rim salt

 

[RocketMan]

OK, as a follow up to this, the 2 I attempted, a lime vinegar as the OP linked to and a Tequila Lime Vinegar, to do were both a complete FAIL. The Lime Vinegar never became anything more that a salty lime juice and the Tequila Lime never converted to vinegar though it did serve to make a fairly good Tequila Lime Chicken.

 

[Howletzer1]

While I don't have the massive knowledge of my fellow hot pepper members , I have been making my own vineger from beer using a miniature version of the solera system used for making sherry vinegar .....I can tell you this ......salt and lime juice will never make vinegar ....vinegar is a two step fermentation process , the first being yeast converting sugars to alcohol and the second being aceto bactar converting alcohol to acetic acid ......yeast will never thrive in either citric acid or high salt concentrations ......second ,vinegar fermentation requires oxygen not a closed lid on a jar .......I agree what this is , is just salted picketed lime juice.
P.s. Samuel Adams Boston lager makes an extremely flavorful yet mild vinegar!

 

[SmokenFire]

I would like to know more about turning beer into vinegar.  To teh googler Seamus!

 

[smallzi]

Well, this thread certainly piqued my interest...so much so that I spent about the last 4 hours reading about aerobic acetobacter fermentation.
 
I have a background in environmental bioremediation, so i'm familiar with these processes to a certain extent.
 
That being said, I fear that your recipe will not yield the desired result.   "Bugs," as we call them, do some magical things, so i wouldn't write the experiment off just yet.  I will say however that acetic acid producing bacteria tend to thrive in an aerobic aqueous environment with a pH between about 5 and 7.   Like all organisms, their growth rates will be impacted by swimming in too much of their own "shit."
 
Vinegars, as you well know, start with a solution of sugars and water.   The sugar is converted into ethanol by yeast, and the ethanol is then oxidized by bacteria to yield acetic acid.     The "scoby" in kombucha is actually a symbiotic mass of yeast and bacteria, and can actually be used as a "mother" for sugary vinegar feedstocks.
 
The reason i'm skeptical about the above recipe is that lime juice has such a low pH that ethanol synthesis is unlikely to occur via the action of yeast.   With no ethanol, there can be no acetic acid by way of "mother."
 
A suggested workaround (should the above method fail) would be to dillute the lime juice with a simple syrup.    This would provide a better feedstock for the yeast during the anaerobic phase, while also raising the pH to a more acceptible level.
 
As an aside, after reading this thread, I decided to try to make cognac vinegar.
 
solution A (6% ethanol by volume) is composed of the following:
100mL 80 proof cognac
550mL distilled water
16 mL Braggs unpasteurized unfiltered vinegar "with mother"
 
solution B (6% ethanol by volume) is composed of the following:
100mL 80 proof cognac
560mL distilled water
10mL kombucha "scoby"
 
 
</two cents>

here are some links that might be helpful:
 
http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/pdf/5346.pdf  - Ohio State University Extension - "making cider vinegar at home"
http://chemistry.about.com/od/foodscienceprojects/a/How-To-Make-Homemade-Vinegar.htm -  Anne Marie Helmenstine, Ph.D.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid_bacteria
 
also i should add that my cognac experiment will be held at a temperature of 80F, in glass vessels, and shaken once weekly to increase DO (dissolved oxygen concentration).
 
-Matt

 
 
A quick update:   off topic but relevant.    I left my vinegar solutions in a dark room on a shelf at nearly constant temperature for 4.5 months, and kind of forgot about them actually.    Solution A, spiked with unpasteurized cider vinegar, resulted in a dark liquid that still smells like cognac.   Solution B, innoculated with the kombucha scoby, resulted in some really fine vinegar!   It smells and tastes like a mild cider vinegar, but not as sweet.    I will measure pH as soon as i get a proper meter.

 

[Chili Monsta]

 ......salt and lime juice will never make vinegar ....vinegar is a two step fermentation process , the first being yeast converting sugars to alcohol and the second being aceto bactar converting alcohol to acetic acid ......yeast will never thrive in either citric acid or high salt concentrations ......second ,vinegar fermentation requires oxygen not a closed lid on a jar .......I agree what this is , is just salted picketed lime juice.
 

I agree completely...
 

I started making my own vinegar's five years ago this Christmas. And just as Howletzer1 posted, there has to be sufficient levels of yeast&sugar for stage 1 ( alcohol)  and alcohol and oxygen for stage 2 (acetic acid)
I've done it both ways....fermenting fruits& juice and sugar to wine,(apple,raspberry,blueberry,pineapple) and also wine to vinegar.
I currently have red wine, white wine, and apple cider vinegar's....and I use one almost daily.
 

This red wine vinegar is the first one I started...and has been fed and used for nearly 5 years
 
The success depends totally upon having an active mother, which is a cellulose membrane that forms on the surface of the liquid and serves sort of like a lung for the active bacteria as they consume the alcohol and expel acetic acid.
 
 once you have an active mother, it will continue to live and grow as long as its fed. Then when it grow so large that it can't float any longer,(or its disturbed) it sinks to the bottom and another mother will form. (That s why a container with a spigot works best, as it allows you to siphon off some vinegar without disturbing the mother) You can also remove part of the mother and place it into a fresh batch to start another container. But I've noticed that without a mother floating on top, exposed to oxygen, the creation of acidic acid is impacted slowing the formation of finished vinegar.
 
Initally, I started with organic wine with no sulfites, or additives to retard spoilage. (Those things the wine  makers toss in to try and keep opened/unconsumed wine from turning to vinegar)
It took about 2-1/2 months for a nice healthy mother to form and the flavor to mature. after getting a strong mother going,even wine with those additives works just fine. Now I just try and carefully replace the amount of vinegar I use every couple days with the same amount of wine.   
 
No unconsumed  wine every goes to waste around my house or any of my friends.
 
Note:
When not using my own vinegar's, I use Braggs exclusively (except for cleaning and laundry...then I use the distilled rotgut stuff), and while I've tried on several occasions to use it to assist the growth of a mother in my cider vinegar, I've never been totally happy with the result. And both cider and pineapple vinegar is very easy to make without any help anyway. My recipe is fresh fruit and scraps(over ripe works best) some brown sugar or agave nectar and distilled water.Airlock for 2-3 days, then remove the airlock and cover with cheese cloth. Place in a dark-cool place.
 
Here's an excellent link:
http://boulderlocavore.com/2011/02/make-it-yourself-homemade-vinegar.html
CM