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preservation is a shelf stable no-vinegar sauce possible?

Jeffcontonio

Jeffcontonio

I've been playing around with fermentation and have always wondered why vinegar is added just before bottling if your ph is already below 3.5?

Isn't that ph already within safe levels? But every recipe I see says to add vinegar anyway or to keep it refrigerated. Why?
 
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I thought that there have been discussions here about using only lemon juice, and no vinegar. It would be nice; I prefer the taste of lemon juice over vinegar. Even so, I still use vinegar. It just feels safer and more neutral for adding sauce to foods.
 
 
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Jeffcontonio said:
Yes, I was wondering if you need to add an acid at all since the ph is already pretty low.
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It is my understanding that on a fermented sauce with a low enough PH it is shelf stable without adding any acid.

Please wait for someone to confirm this. Salsalady, Smokenfire, Buddy are a few that would probably know.

I think you have to process(heat up ) fermented sauce to stop fermentation otherwise you risk a bottle bomb.
 
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Correct in that if the ph is low enough from fermentation no additional acids are needed.

However, that does not make the sauce "shelf stable". Shelf stable means being left unrefrigerated for an extended time. Once a sauce is properly fermented it should be refrigerated or cooked and bottled. I know some things keep fermenting for months or years. Keep in mind that those ferments have not been opened and are oxygen free environments. Once that environment has been opened, the sauce needs to be refrigerated, where it will last for a good long while, or properly cooked and bottled....with no additional vinegar or citrus juices.
 
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Jeffcontonio said:
So It can be uncooked providing I leave it in the fridge?

What would happen if it's left out? Is it because the bottle could burst, like was mentioned above?
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Yes, you can leave it uncooked as long as it is refrigerated.  Think about what would happen if you left kimchi or sauerkraut out on the counter.  Both of those are fermented and have a low pH.  But eventually they would spoil at room temp.  Kraut and kimchi in the fridge lasts....pretty much indefinitely.  Part of that reason is that it is refrigerated (or kept cool in a jar in the ground) and that it is still fermenting. 
 
A fermenting sauce has some good probiotics going on.  Others with more smarts than me can tell you which Good Bugs are in there, but they are good for the gut type of bugs.  If you want to keep those active, refrigeration is the way to go.  Treat it like kraut or kimchi. 
 
If you put an active ferment in a sealed jar and left it on the counter...there is a good chance it would explode because it is fermenting and giving of gas which builds up inside the jar.  That's why active ferments must have a bubbler or be burped to release the gasses.  Refrigeration slows the fermentation process, I dunno for sure, but I would guess that an active ferment put in a sealed jar in the fridge could theoretically eventually explode if not opened. 
 
 
Once the sauce is fermented and the pH is good there is no need for vinegar to lower the pH.  Some people add vinegar or lemon juice for FLAVOR....but it is not needed for pH.  If an acid is added, it will slow or stop the fermentation process.  But I still recommend the sauce be refrigerated or cooked and bottled. 
 
An experienced sauce maker may choose to do things differently, but for newbie saucers and fermenters, it's best to err on the side of safety and either refer or hot pack the sauce.  Hot packing stops the fermentation process (cooking kills all the active bugs) and creates an oxygen-free environment so the fermented sauce tastes the same but is safe to store in the pantry. 
 
Hope this helps~
SL
 
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My fermented peppers usually have a pH of about 3.4-3.6 after 4-6 weeks.  Although that is low enough in pH to be shelf stable, I will store in the refrigerator until I'm ready to process into a sauce.  The coolness really slows down the fermentation and I've not had any issues with over-pressurization in the fridge.  I have found that storing the fermented peppers in the fridge allows them to mellow over time and create unique flavor profiles.  The last of the fermented Manzano peppers I processed into a sauce had a smell that reminded me of canned peaches - absolutely wonderful!  They had been in the fridge about 2 years!
 
Still, I will add my favorite vinegar when I process into sauce and the reason has nothing to do with shelf life - I simply love vinegar.
 
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salsalady said:
Correct in that if the ph is low enough from fermentation no additional acids are needed.

However, that does not make the sauce "shelf stable". Shelf stable means being left unrefrigerated for an extended time. Once a sauce is properly fermented it should be refrigerated or cooked and bottled. I know some things keep fermenting for months or years. Keep in mind that those ferments have not been opened and are oxygen free environments. Once that environment has been opened, the sauce needs to be refrigerated, where it will last for a good long while, or properly cooked and bottled....with no additional vinegar or citrus juices.
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Who has sauce that last long enough to go bad? I have been using things on hand and the sauce I fermented with yeast has to be my oldest and the yeast tasted like something i did not want and I was surprised that the yeast I used really has change the profile after sitting a long while
Need to check the rest of batch and test flavor profile
 
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Yes you can but that's all I know.  
 
This is something I am trying to get clarification on too as to the specifics of salt vs yeast vs some other starter for fermentation.  
 
I've been thru the Fermentation 101 post but it doesn't really address the differences and pluses/minuses between the 2 to 3 fermentation methods other than the recipes.  Mold seems to be an big issue for some of the non-salt fermenters.
 
I make a sauce fermented w/just a little water and 3% salt by weight of final cleaned chilies, garlic, etc. No weights, just the illustrated bottles without their rubber sealers to prevent explosions and allow gases to escape.
 
I'm not vegan or even vegetarian, but this method of fermentation insures vegan-ness for those who might be drawn your way because of this. ;)  Using a starter such as whey might put them off, despite them being a small percentage of potential buyers of sauce.
 
After a month or 2, I add around 50% by volume of vinegar to the volume to hopefully stop the fermentation.  I've never found my mash tasting sour at the end of the fermentation period to indicate a low pH, so I follow the recipe I have, and use vinegar.  
 
I live in Thailand so it's hard with the language barrier etc to find stuff like bottles for the finished sauce and because it's illegal to brew your own booze here, brewing supplies are gonna be hard to come by.  I'm going to look for a pH meter but given the way customs adds lots and lots to the final cost of imports, it may be an impractical purchase.  
 
Hence I plan to stick to the simplicity of the salt fermentation recipe unless I hear some wondrous reasons to switch to some other method.  I'll be making a post soon to reiterate the above question and more as well :)
 
 
Walchit said:
You can use yeast to ferment the Peppers? So is it alcohol afterwards?
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^^^emanphoto you can use a pure lactobacillus starter in the form of a Culturelle probiotic capsule/packet that will be vegan-friendly. Don't know the availability of those in Thailand but I'd imagine Amazon ships most everywhere. Or use the juice from a raw sauerkraut or kimchi ferment. Or a previous hot sauce ferment. The only starter I can see giving you a problem from a vegan point of view is yogurt whey. The bacteria in all these cases is almost always Lactobacillus species. Plus or minus a few other types of lactic acid producing bacteria. Not yeast.
 
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Thank you jhc!
jhc said:
^^^emanphoto you can use a pure lactobacillus starter in the form of a Culturelle probiotic capsule/packet that will be vegan-friendly. Don't know the availability of those in Thailand but I'd imagine Amazon ships most everywhere. Or use the juice from a raw sauerkraut or kimchi ferment. Or a previous hot sauce ferment. The only starter I can see giving you a problem from a vegan point of view is yogurt whey. The bacteria in all these cases is almost always Lactobacillus species. Plus or minus a few other types of lactic acid producing bacteria. Not yeast.
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If the OP was posted with an eye toward commercial production, pH 4.6 is the magic number. Anything above that is considered by the FDA to be a "low-acid" food and requires specific processing precautions. The Food Safety Modernization Act passed just last August updates food safety laws to bring them in alignment with current scientific understanding. Relevant guidance can be found here:

https://www.fda.gov/Food/GuidanceRegulation/GuidanceDocumentsRegulatoryInformation/AcidifiedLACF/default.htm

Note that if you add an acid for the purpose of bringing a product's final pH below 4.6, it needs to be processed the same as a low-acid food. If the low pH is achieved simply from the flavor ingredients or from (intentional) fermentation, these regulations don't apply and adequate sterilization and shelf stability can be achieved with hot water bath processing (and maybe hot fill, I'm unsure about that). In the kitchen I use, there is a chart that species the amount of time a product must be HWB processed *at temperature* for a specific pH. My Scorpion sauce has a pH of 3.2 and so has to be HWB processed for 20 minutes.

Even then, the product is only "shelf stable" until it's been opened. Just about everything should be refrigerated after opening. (Nevermind I have two year old opened jars on the unrefrigerated shelf that *seem* to be just fine... what we feed others is a whole different ball game from what we feed ourselves.) And "shelf stable" is only good until the "best by" date or expiration date, typically about a year after the manufacture date.
 
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Some people add vinegar because that's how you get from "salsa" to " hot sauce," with that familiar tang. It's not always preservation. It's simply a factor and part of profile building to what we know as the hot sauce taste, though, not in all cases of course, it's all up top you. But if you open your mind to the possibilities of it adding something to the product instead of it simply being a preservative, you may like it. Imagine ketchup w/o vinegar. It's tomato paste. Or mustard.
 
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Exactly. The vinegar in my product is there for its contribution to the flavor profile, not as an acidifying agent. Thus it's processed under the more lenient "acid food" category rather than as a low-acid or acidified food.
 
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