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Is this a nutrient issue?

oldsalty said:
This is common people just throwing out ideas :)
And welcome to the forum !! :)
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Common, perhaps.  Though that really isn't an excuse. 
 
Ideas?  No.  Just tired mantras:  "Monsanto bad."  "Organic good."  Heard them a million times.  They don't get better with repetition.
 
And thank you kindly for the welcome, oldsalty (and others).
 
since you like my suggestions here are a couple more
 
1. quit trying to find every single variance of a deficiency, usually this never occurs until the plant is past saving, they usually manifest in an order...so listen or wait, i dont care, but theres a reason you cant match up every symptom to a set of data that is the equivalent of all human knowledge
 
2. quit acting like you know it all when you ask for help, cuz if you did know it all you wouldnt need help
 
3. please dont respond to this post anywhere other than in your heart
 
4. since im probably the nicest person  on this board :liar: I'm going to tell you to ameliorate your pH problem with lime - liquid works fastest, feed it again a few days later, and then just keep an eye on the new growth to make sure the right direction is now the way youre facing and then start feeding it more often than you have been.
 
I suspect you mixed the MG and cal-mag as concentrates before you added water. Or with not enough water.
 
From what I could find, it could potentially be an iron, zinc or manganese issue.

The lack of iron is one of the more common nutrients associated with chlorosis. Manganese or zinc deficiencies in the plant will also cause chlorosis. The way to separate an iron deficiency from a zinc or manganese deficiency is to check what foliage turned chlorotic first. Iron chlorosis starts on the younger or terminal leaves and later works inward to the older leaves. However, manganese and zinc deficiencies develop on the inner or the older leaves first and then progress outward. Plants need iron for the formation of chlorophyll. Chlorophyll gives leaves their green color and is necessary for the plant to produce the food it needs for its own growth. Iron is also necessary for many enzyme functions that manage plant metabolism and respiration. Iron becomes more insoluble as the soil pH climbs above 6.5 to 6.7 (7.0 is neutral - below 7.0, the pH is acidic; above 7.0, the pH is alkaline). With most plants, iron can only be absorbed as a free ion (Fe++) when the pH is between 5.0 and 6.5.
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http://extension.illinois.edu/focus/index.cfm?problem=chlorosis

Neil
 
Might want to check out the guaranteed analysis on the MG product you're using and compare to a more reputable one part like Foliage Pro. If I recall most MG doesn't have iron (correction, it does), calcium or magnesium. Better to find a complete fertilizer than to chase deficiencies with supplements. By the time you visibly notice a deficiency, it's long been a problem for the plant.
 
I'm not much of a troubleshooter but there looks to be more than one issue going on (usually indicative of pH issues or root zone pathogen). Doesn't really look like textbook iron.
 
Blister said:
From what I could find, it could potentially be an iron, zinc or manganese issue.

http://extension.illinois.edu/focus/index.cfm?problem=chlorosis

Neil
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Looks like you can check it with the plant on the right. I mean see where its starting.
miguelovic said:
Might want to check out the guaranteed analysis on the MG product you're using and compare to a more reputable one part like Foliage Pro. If I recall most MG doesn't have iron (correction, it does), calcium or magnesium. Better to find a complete fertilizer than to chase deficiencies with supplements. By the time you visibly notice a deficiency, it's long been a problem for the plant.
 
I'm not much of a troubleshooter but there looks to be more than one issue going on (usually indicative of pH issues or root zone pathogen). Doesn't really look like textbook iron.
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You're right about it looking different. But only on top, it looks textbook on that side shoot in my opinion.
Usually I get my iron deficiencies in the winter when the temperature messes with pH.
 
Once I got a plant like this by mixing Foliage Pro with epsom salt right in the kind of measuring cup that comes with cough medicine.
 
:doh:, went derp  and proceeded to fix it.
 
Sorry to cause such a fuss! When I first started I used mg and it looked like what happened...distorted yellow leaves. I switched to fox farms grow big and it fixed the problems.
 
DMF said:
Wow!  Such passion.  Maybe I came to the right place.  :dance:  
 
Heckle, sulfur also caught my eye, but it doesn't really fit either.  Here's the best I found for iron:
 
New leaves are the most symptomatic and when condition is most severe they can be all yellow or white but still have green veins.
Pale, yes.  There is a hair-thin green color to the veins.  Suggestive.
 
Overall you see yellow leaves with green veins leading to marginal scorching or browning of leaf tips.
None of this.  The oldest leaves seem unaffected. 
 
Tip leaves, especially basal areas of leaflets, intense chlorotic mottling; stem near tip also yellow.
I don't how to interpret most of this.  The stem is not yellow at the tips, though a few show purple streaks in the leaf stem, extending part way up into the leaf.
 
Fruits have poor color.
N/A.  Nothing has produced yet.
 
Shoot diameter is small.
Not that I noticed.
 
Iron deficit often occurs when the soil pH is higher than 7.5 meaning it is more alkaline.
IIRC, base MCMG is around 6.0.  This is my first year using D/FW tap water.  I don't think it's alkaline, but I'll check.  There is some dissolved mineral content.  In any event, all 35 pots get the same water.
 
Lack of Fe is common in plants living next to concrete walls, foundations etc.
This is a balcony grow with a concrete slab.  But only large pots are sitting on concrete.  The smaller, most affected, pots are all on racks.
 
Additional observations:  The affected new leaves seem stunted or misshapen, though not badly so.   The basal shoot that is all pale has something else going on - the larger leaves are finely mottled and are thin, almost brittle.  I'll see if I can get a revealing pic.
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

 
Thanks, but I didn't say no light.  I said no direct sun.  There is plenty of light - 14 hours of bright shade.  I rented this place because it has a southern exposure above the trees.  But I rented when the sun was low and didn't realize that at the solstice the balcony is in full shade.  (And only my balcony.  Most of the others on this side of the building get good sun.)  Now that the solstice has passed the big pots along the railing get up to 3 hours of sun, which time will improve as the year goes on. 
 
Frankly, I'm surprised at how well the plants are doing without full sun.  The Brazilian Starfish seem especially comfortable without.  I'm sure that I'll have better growth with sun.  Fortunately, we have a long growing season here.  (Double fortunate because I got a late start this year - late March.)

 Most of the time.  I also let the water sit for as long as possible to off-gas.
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You really did come to the right place. Some of us just are more entertaining than others
 
Just how much MG did you 'hit' them with?
 
IMO, there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with the Dreaded Blue Crystals (apart from the insane prejudice some peeps have against them.)
 
FWLIW, I've enjoyed modest container success using frequent light doses of MG AP.  Better soil, and perhaps ferts, would likely be better, but it's not like my plants are keeling over dead from the MG. 
 
As mentioned, the MG AP does lack calcium, magnesium, and sulfur.  A pinch of epsom salt takes care of the Mg and S, and a pinch (use sparingly lest you block the Mg!) of home brew calcium acetate crystals seems to provide all the Ca my peppers need.
 
I don't know what happened to your plants.  I'd suggest a good flush with the next watering  (wait until they are dry!), then no nutes for a few weeks.  See if the new growth returns to green.  If so, all is well.  If not, you may have deeper problems.
 
MG_All_Purpose_1.5.jpg
 
I've never really had nutrient problems before so I don't know how to diagnose.  Soil chemistry is not one of my skills.  I did expect that the distinctive chlorosis along the veins would be remarked somewhere.  I have yet to see it.  Further, that is what develops first.  Of the seven affected plants, only three are really showing tip chlorosis (and one of those does seem to have an aggravating problem).
 
No on the CalMag.  I use epsom salts for the Ca/Mg issues, and they haven't cropped up this year so only one light app back in June.  AP I use as directed - 1 scoop per gallon.  In general, I prefer to fertilize as little as possible.  They've eaten 3 (4?) times this year.

Blister - Thanks for the quote.  There's some good info in there!  I'm starting to draw some conclusions:
  1. It is an issue with iron.  Nothing really fits, but iron fits less badly than anything else.
  2. The problem is made worse be keeping these guys crammed in small pots.  I thought that was contra-indicated because some of the affected plants are in large pots.  But in retrospect at least two were recently up-potted. 
  3. Perhaps the large amount of chlorophyll in the very green foliage is depleting the iron.  If I understand correctly, a leaf grows from the vein out, so an iron deficiency during leaf growth would tend to produce what is observed.  Does this make sense?
Current plan of attack - feed the affected plants well and see what happens.  I'll try lime in the small pots when I get some. 
 
BTW, the MG AP had 0.15% chelated iron.

Baseman said:
Sorry to cause such a fuss! When I first started I used mg and it looked like what happened...distorted yellow leaves. I switched to fox farms grow big and it fixed the problems.
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I really like what I've seen of Fox Farms and given my choice I'd be using it.  But it's just too expensive for my budget.  With the problems I was having with germination this year (long story) I ended up with 75 plants - way more than I can grow here.  But I just seem incapable of killing a pepper, so 40 were grown up and gifted.  I'm thinking seriously about using FF when the few target plants move up to the big pots, but still, that's a lot of dirt.  We'll see.
 
Dennis
 
It is a rather odd symptom.
 
Using epsom to provide calcium is a good way to get a calcium deficiency. Note the bubbling, misshapen leaves.
 
I'd assume these are the first few to have worked their way through the lime the soil came with and that the others will gradually do the same. Assumptions are hilariously inaccurate. Your plan forward should help but I would expect you'll be treating the others.
 
I did not post "assumptions", I posted (perhaps poorly) reasoned conclusions.  To simply state that they are "laughably inaccurate" is an insult to myself and a disservice to readers.  If you have contrary reasons or better conclusions, then SAY SO.  Otherwise kindly refrain from replying.
 
I would start off putting them in a larger container with growing media @ a pH of 6.0 to 6.5 and do a good flush. Of course making sure your new media has excellent drainage to facilitate a good flushing. allow everything to dry out and see if anything changes.(May take a little time). I have found in situations like this that reaction rather than careful deliberation is generally contrary to solution.
 
Thanks Cap.  I considered a water flush, but since I have fed them so little I can't imagine that there would a buildup of anything that would merit flushing.  I did mix up a solution of standard AP, did a foliar spray as suggested at http://extension.ill...oblem=chlorosis (though in general I don't believe that foloar application has much merit for peppers) and did a full pot dunk roughly equivalent to a flush since there was considerable wash-through.
 
Now we wait, I guess.
 
I was attempting to get you toward  a neutral pH media with very low to 0 TDS. If the leaves start to go white from there I would be inclined to believe the media was iron deficient. Its a starting point and only that. but its sometimes the best place to work from with peppers.
 
I doubt plain water will bring acidic peat back to neutral if the plant has used up all the calcium like miguelovic suggested and I agree with.
 
Adding dolomite lime mixed with water will bring the pH back close to neutral and will supply some calcium immediately.
 
Heckle said:
I doubt plain water will bring acidic peat back to neutral
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Yeah, my reaction too.  But I dredged up the Dallas Water Whatever report and it says that "typically pH ranges from 7.2 to 8.2" - more alkaline than I would have thought.  Guess there's some lime in my future. 
 
miguelovic said:
It is a rather odd symptom.
 
Using epsom to provide calcium is a good way to get a calcium deficiency. Note the bubbling, misshapen leaves.
 
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Yuppers...
 
Calcium and Magnesium are chemically similar, at least from the plant's POV, and have a slightly adversarial relationship in that too much of one can block uptake of the other.
 
Epsom contains zero Ca, and too much can _cause_ a Ca deficiency.
 
Likewise, too much Ca can trigger a classic case of low Mg interveinal chlorosis.  It doesn't take much, as I discovered earlier this year while playing with Ca-acetate.   :doh:
 
 
IMO, 1 full scoop of MG per gallon is a hell of a lot for pepper plants.  I'd cut that significantly!  Half a teaspoon or so per gallon sounds much less stressful.  In general, I'd suggest you start any fertilizer treatment at the low end of the dose scale, than give the plants a week or so to show improvement before increasing the dose.
 
Geonerd said:
IMO, 1 full scoop of MG per gallon is a hell of a lot for pepper plants.  I'd cut that significantly!  Half a teaspoon or so per gallon sounds much less stressful.
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Is that dosage per watering, or per month (which is about how often I'm feeding now).
 
Per watering.
You can experiment with the frequency.  A wild-assed-guess for that mix would be once every 3~4 waterings, but there are so many variables that I hesitate to prescribe a specific recipe. 
 
For now, I'd definitely NOT feed them any more MG for quite some time. ;)
 
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