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Is this a nutrient issue?
- Thread starter DMF
- Start date
symptoms:
Worst affected are younger leaves
Chlorosis appears to start at veins then whole leaf starting at base
Leaves deformed at tip, some burn.
user setup:
Miracle grow moisture control potting mix
Miracle grow ferts every 3 week
Epsom salt sometimes
Tap water 8ish
Low sun exposure
High heat exposure(dallas tx)
suggested fix:
#1 lime: calcium seems it would be low or non-existent in your setup, also lime will help balance ph problem if there is one which could be affecting calcium uptake.
reference:
3/4 of page down (ctrl+f calcium) http://6e.plantphys.net/topic05.01.html
ps. hi dmf
Worst affected are younger leaves
Chlorosis appears to start at veins then whole leaf starting at base
Leaves deformed at tip, some burn.
user setup:
Miracle grow moisture control potting mix
Miracle grow ferts every 3 week
Epsom salt sometimes
Tap water 8ish
Low sun exposure
High heat exposure(dallas tx)
suggested fix:
#1 lime: calcium seems it would be low or non-existent in your setup, also lime will help balance ph problem if there is one which could be affecting calcium uptake.
reference:
3/4 of page down (ctrl+f calcium) http://6e.plantphys.net/topic05.01.html
ps. hi dmf
I think most folks around here who grow in containers would agree that soilless mix is the way to go.
This may be pulling off-topic, but I'm a first year grower using MG soil+Hummus/manure in Homer buckets; outcomes seem to be doing alright. What alternatives do you use if not soil? Thanks!
soil-less mix just doesn't have dirt / poo. Instead has stuff like peatmoss, perlite, vermiculite, coco coir, coco fibre, rice hulls, tree bark, etc. Promix HP or BX is a very popular soiless mix. There are lots of benefits but mainly can be summarized as you can craft the mix into exactly what the plant needs and not have risk of disease / pests from normal soil.Fitsea said:
you can aggregate data on forum of everyone who trying different things(there are many years of knowledge on this forum, just gotta find it), read studies on google scholar, or yeah trial an error if you want to do it all yourself.Fitsea said:
when i said "you can craft" i really meant, experts can craft/test a good mix and recommend it to you. you wouldn't be crafting it yourself probably(unless you feel so inclined see 5-1-1 mix or als gritty mix)
Well now. This is a horse of a different color!
They had no dolomitic lime at Lowes so I went over to Lone Star Hydro. They didn't have any either but they did have a whole bunch of serendipity.
Back in Spring I cleaned out the starter flats of runts and extras and donated them to the hydro store, where they have a nice demonstration garden. Well guess what? My runts and cast-offs were still there in pots out front, and no longer runty (no surprise, that). The store uses a custom potting mix and unknown nutrients, both of which are guaranteed to have no relation to Monsanto. They get considerable more sun (though not full sun) and somewhat less wind than mine. In other words, same plants, completely different regimen. Some looked better (the Cheiro Recife has colored pods already and the Lemon Drop is more robust than mine) and some are trailing (the Black Pearl that I thought was going to die is bigger than mine yet is all foliage - no pearls).
But the chinenses have the SAME problem. The Butch T is way worse than my two (of four) that are affected, with nearly all the top foliage chlorotic. The Big Sun Hab looks about the same as mine with fine veinal chlorosis. None of our 7 Pot Douglahs show the symptoms.
The hydro man (Doc) wasn't in, nor the gardener (Loren), so I couldn't be more specific about the regimen, but I think we can rule out any Miracle Grow product or any of my practices as causative.
If the assumption that you referred to was your own, then I apologize. But I fail to see the point. Why are you fixating on a calcium deficiency? Or are you?
Sphagnum moss is a common base, with pine bark, perlite, composted sawdust, etc, etc. added. The idea is to avoid the compaction that makes most "natural" soils inappropriate for pots.
Too, most "soilless mixes" are more concerned with providing the right environment for the roots, and less with providing actual nutrition. Pots are (properly) considered controlled environments, where nutrients are in the control of the gardener. Mixes such as the classic 5:1:1 or gritty mix on their owne would soon starve the plant. Yet the mixes have other attributes that make them superior (in most cases) to dirt.
So how are you doing in your first year? Caught the bug yet?
They had no dolomitic lime at Lowes so I went over to Lone Star Hydro. They didn't have any either but they did have a whole bunch of serendipity.
Back in Spring I cleaned out the starter flats of runts and extras and donated them to the hydro store, where they have a nice demonstration garden. Well guess what? My runts and cast-offs were still there in pots out front, and no longer runty (no surprise, that). The store uses a custom potting mix and unknown nutrients, both of which are guaranteed to have no relation to Monsanto. They get considerable more sun (though not full sun) and somewhat less wind than mine. In other words, same plants, completely different regimen. Some looked better (the Cheiro Recife has colored pods already and the Lemon Drop is more robust than mine) and some are trailing (the Black Pearl that I thought was going to die is bigger than mine yet is all foliage - no pearls).
But the chinenses have the SAME problem. The Butch T is way worse than my two (of four) that are affected, with nearly all the top foliage chlorotic. The Big Sun Hab looks about the same as mine with fine veinal chlorosis. None of our 7 Pot Douglahs show the symptoms.
The hydro man (Doc) wasn't in, nor the gardener (Loren), so I couldn't be more specific about the regimen, but I think we can rule out any Miracle Grow product or any of my practices as causative.
miguelovic said:
If the assumption that you referred to was your own, then I apologize. But I fail to see the point. Why are you fixating on a calcium deficiency? Or are you?
Sorry, I don't see tip deformation or burn, though those may be more advanced symptoms. Although the hydro store's Butch T is worse than mine, I didn't observe these effects. On two badly affected leaves (here), there is some edge curl. I'll try to get a pic.juanitos said:
Not applicable given the hydro store.
I still don't see why you think this is a calcium problem. Okay, the pH may be an issue and that *would* tend to block Ca. But I don't see the symptoms as consistent with Ca deficiency. Especially, I see no necrosis. What am I missing?
Good resource! Wisht I had the book.
Fitsea, the "soilless mix" term is a bit confusing. There are, especially in hydro- or aeroponics, true soil-less environments. But in this case it means that the pot contains no dirt dug out of someone's back yard. Rather, the mix in the pot contains just about everything except soil (dirt).Fitsea said:
Sphagnum moss is a common base, with pine bark, perlite, composted sawdust, etc, etc. added. The idea is to avoid the compaction that makes most "natural" soils inappropriate for pots. Too, most "soilless mixes" are more concerned with providing the right environment for the roots, and less with providing actual nutrition. Pots are (properly) considered controlled environments, where nutrients are in the control of the gardener. Mixes such as the classic 5:1:1 or gritty mix on their owne would soon starve the plant. Yet the mixes have other attributes that make them superior (in most cases) to dirt.
So how are you doing in your first year? Caught the bug yet?
So how are you doing in your first year? Caught the bug yet?
Oh yeah! Having a blast growing a few different things.
• 1 poblano (see recent thread I made today on it. On mobile, so linking is tough)
• 1 jalapeño. Dude kept dropping fruit in this heat. Found a shady spot in the rooftop behind the elevator and between two AC units that it seems to like.
• 1 Serrano that, like the Jal, has had some sun issues, but not as much
• 1 ghost and 1 Thai that I just got ~2 weeks back. Can't imagine I'll get anything out of 'em, but it's just for fun.
• About 8 baby Habaneros from seed out of a pepper I got at the grocery store. I had lost the hab plant I bought earlier this season, so I thought it'd be fun to start from nothin on this one. We'll see where that goes. Maybe I'll OW it. Who knows, haha.
Oh yeah! Having a blast growing a few different things.
• 1 poblano (see recent thread I made today on it. On mobile, so linking is tough)
• 1 jalapeño. Dude kept dropping fruit in this heat. Found a shady spot in the rooftop behind the elevator and between two AC units that it seems to like.
• 1 Serrano that, like the Jal, has had some sun issues, but not as much
• 1 ghost and 1 Thai that I just got ~2 weeks back. Can't imagine I'll get anything out of 'em, but it's just for fun.
• About 8 baby Habaneros from seed out of a pepper I got at the grocery store. I had lost the hab plant I bought earlier this season, so I thought it'd be fun to start from nothin on this one. We'll see where that goes. Maybe I'll OW it. Who knows, haha.
Yep. So let's see. I've got 31 chinense. Seven show symptoms. The 7 Pot Primos and Brain Strains in particular are (relatively) enormous and should be showing symptoms. They're not. The Douglahs and BJs are modestly solid - and unaffected. Instead, it's the smallest Butch Ts...juanitos said:
Fair enough, but frankly, I'm not convinced. I'm not throwing sulfur at it either, so by your logic sulfur is equally suspect.
Please respond to my long post above. *I* may not be supplying Ca, but why would one think that the store isn't? (More data to extract there.)
A genetic condition or a virus are alternative explanations. The Butch T and Big Sun seeds came from the same place. (Not the CSB seeds) I've contacted the source to see if he is seeing something similar with his crop. This is not over.
Nope. Oh, the heavily chlorotic new leaves have a problem and *may* be malformed - we'll see. But the damage circled by juanitos in red is from this godawful wind. Many of the leaves, even on healthy plants, are torn. Again, no necrosis.Heckle said:
Don't read too much into this pic. There are more coming, particularly of the plants at the hydro store.
Update: Looking at the pics again, I can see why you draw that conclusion. I'll go over the affected plants in the morning with an open and sober mind. But again, I saw none of this on the plants at the store, though the chlorosis was worse.
Morning update:
Okay, I think you have an argument for Ca deficiency. Never have grown Butch T before so I'm not entirely sure what the leaf is supposed to look like, but the two unaffected plants also have pretty bumpy leaves. Still, these are starting to look like what I've seen on other scorpions.
I'm off to the hydro store with the pictured plant. Doc has a pH meter and we'll probe both his and mine. Pics when I get back.
At last, some hard evidence.
And you guys were right! miguelovic got especially close. The pH meter showed 8.3 for straight tap water. (!) We mixed a solution at 5.0 and washed that through both plants. Mine came out 6.2, his 6.4. That would translate to a soil pH above 8.0. At this pH Fe mobility is very low and Ca is fading out too. Doc said he had noticed the yellowing and that there was a pronounced purple streak in the central leaf veins, and hit the plants with CalMag last week. The new leaves on the Butch T are already coming in greener than their slightly older brethren, though still a little pale.
Although our regimens are different, they are also surprisingly similar, characterized by what might well be termed benign neglect. Both in small pots. His soil is even more soil-less than mine, so less acidic peat etc (thus his higher pH). He's been feeding less - pretty much only at transplant time. And he doesn't get much sun either.
And especially, the water is from the same source, officially assayed at >8.5 pH.
One questionable bit of advice that I didn't fully understand at first was the recommendation of dolomitic lime. Lime doe provide Ca and MG, but it is slow acting and raises pH, which is not what is wanted here.
Fitsea said:
[Missed this one.] juanitos was right in that you can get a wealth of information here. But growing is at least as much art as science. There is a difference between having a head full of knowledge and knowing which of it applies in a given situation. (I offer myself as an axample.) There is no substitute for experience. The first year you will mess up, guaranteed. We all do. But next year your mistakes won't be so blatant or devastating, and after a couple of years you will look like a master. At least your plants will think so.
oldsalty said:All right!!!! Way to go team nothing like working together!! Now go grab a beer and relax!!! Ill sweep up and turn out the lightsnb8hr.jpg
Put .. the bong .. down.