shopping looking to buy LED light, opinions?

idosimon · Oct 21, 2012

I don't think there is much discussion in terms of LED vs. CFL because LEDs are regarded to be better than CFLs. If you do want to try this experiment I would recommend a HO T5 or VHO T5 vs. LEDs.

I'm also planning on doing a MH vs. LED test for vegetative growth for my senior project, so I'm trying to contact some universities about helping me out in terms of money and space.

I'd say if you want to compare growth you need beforehand to make sure everything is exactly the same except for the light. Also, I would say that you need to create parameters for what determines successful growth beforehand - things such as vigor, leaf size, stalk size, number of fruits/pods, ripening time, etc...

LeeRoy · Oct 21, 2012

Smokemaster - This is slightly off topic, but what are your thoughts on higher-power LED's vs. lower power ones? In other words, is it better to invest in a smaller number of say 3 watt LEDs or a larger number of lower power ones?

Flakes · Oct 21, 2012

Ausmith said:
I'd be willing to invest in the gear to run an experiment. However I don't have the space for an HID set-up, but I would be happy to compare LED vs. CFL or FL.

Give me a shopping list.

I'd like to grow 4 plants in each set-up. Same varieties in each. 5 gallon bucket, soil. Organic fert.

If I get motivated I could have this all running by Jan. 1

I'm quite handy so building a ballast or anything else won't be a problem.

Anyone game`?

Hey, that's great! I disagree with idosimon that there's no discussion to be had. Even IF LEDs are better in PAR/w, which is not necessarily the case, the question is really whether one is more cost-effective than the other. In other words, is a less power-hungry but more expensive LED panel better than an "electricity-guzzling" but inexpensive CFL, everything else being equal?

So what I would propose would be:

Let's consider some sort of medium-length horizon, 3 years maybe? In 3 years, the LED panel should outperform the CFL in terms of cost-effectiveness if it is to be deemed "better". (the experiment is going to last only one season, but the projections will be made for three years)

Take a 200-250w CFL for 50-70 bucks. Calculate how many hours the cfl is going to be on - let's say, for example 16h/day for 6months a year - that gives us 2880 hours a year or 8640 hours in total. Most CFLs are rated for 10.000 hours, which means we shouldn't have to, on average, use more than one bulb - but this is a bit iffy, I'll admit. Next, calculate the cost of electricity for those hours - 8640h*0.2kw=1728kwh, which costs about $0.1*1728=$173. Plus a reflector for $15.

So that comes to about $60+$15+$173= $248 for three years of cfl. In order for an LED panel to outperform the CFL, given my conditions and assumptions, it would have to cost at most $248 for the panel+electricity. So, assuming the same 8640 hours in three years, you have to satisfy the function: (LED panel cost) <= $248 - 8640*$0.1*(LED panel power in kw).

So, let's say you've got a 100w LED panel, it should cost no more than $162. You can do a quick table in excel:

Code:

200w $75,20
180w $92,48
160w $109,76
140w $127,04
120w $144,32
100w $161,60
80w $178,88
60w $196,16
40w $213,44
20w $230,72

What we can observe immediately is, at 200w, the maximum cost of the LED panel should not exceed $75 - exactly the price of the CFL bulb + the reflector. These are the "maximum" prices, go over these price and the LEDs will cost you more than the CFL in three years. Pay exactly that amount and you'll be able to see whether plants under the CFL do better or worse than under LEDs that cost as much to operate. Pay less than the maximum price and you'll only be able to say something definitive if the plants under the LEDs do at least as well as the plants under the CFL.

There are many ways to go about this, you could focus on a shorter or longer horizon, you could change the assumptions regarding price of electicity, hours of light, lifespan of the bulbs/panels etc. You could assume price of electricity will change over time. Or you could assume that if you buy the CFL and in a year's time a new, much more efficient and cheap lightsource is produced, you can scrap the CFL (because the majority of the cost of running a CFL is the electricity) and replace it with the new uber-bulb - might even be a much cheaper LED! If you're going to be building the LED panels yourself, you could include some nominal wage in the calculation. And so on...

smokemaster · Oct 22, 2012

In general I think if you buy a pre made/ccommercial panel,LEDs will not be cost effective or will be junk(cheep versions that don't satisfy a plants needs for long).

The only way I could get what I wanted/needed was to make my own.

As far as 3+ watt Leds vs 1 watt LEDS.I say 1 watt LEDs are better for my use.

I can place them closer together without heat problems and put 10 +/- different wave lengths on a 8in.X16in .or 16x16in. panel.
I use 1/16th inch sheet aluminum to mount the stars on and Perf Board (( 7X12in)for 10mm LEDs.

I don't cool the panels,only the LM317's and resistors that are in a small box,in line running to each panel.
I use small computer power supplies for juice (12volt 12 amp. or 24volt 2.5amp. )They are cheap at the surplus store.

To get as many wave lengths as I use you'll have to use both 10mm and stars.

If you can get all the wave lengths you need in 280,000mcd(100+lumens) use 10mm LEDs.
They are easier to assemble and are higher Lumen.
BUT run hotter and need some cooling.

I use Stars or 10mm in 35-100Lm(depending on which LED)...

Blue , 465-475nm , 440nm-450nm

Red 629nm - 630nm , 625nm - 635nm , 658nm-662nm , 630nm-640nm

If the data sheets are true i'm getting
Blue in 440nm , 445nm , 448nm , 465nm , 470nm

red in 625nm , 629nm , 630nm , 635nm , 638nm , 658nm , 660nm

IF the LEDS really put out the wave lengths they are rated at running on the voltages I'm using.

When I get around to making the spectrometer,AND if it works I'll be able to see what I actually have.

LEDS put out lesser amounts (under 50%) of wave lengths that aren't on the data sheet.I'm sure there are at least as many stray wave lengths also produced by the LEDs as the ones they are rated at.
I look at it as a +,LEDs don't stray very far from their designed wave lengths so even the wave lengths above and below their rating should still be in the ball park I think.

Plant usable or not,I don't know until I test them out with a spectrometer...

My aim with making my panels is to add as many PLANT usable wave lengths as I can with my light source.Get as close to what the sun puts out.
it'll never happen but I can probably get closer with LEDS than most any other light source without too much heat or taking the electric meter for a spin...

I build my LEDs while killing time at work 14hrs. a day,7days.
So my labor is already paid for (I'd be just trying to take over the world on a computer game otherwise-Risk,Command and Conquer,Civilization,whatever-games).
I won most of the $ in a safety bingo here at work.

I have started a post on another site as I built the panels but I guess there must be a tirf war goiing on,link wouldn't post last time I tried...
Too much hassle doing it again here...

5mm experiment

5mm maxed out beyond their limit...

Under stars-1watt

3 10mm panels

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp111/smoemaster_2007/2012%20pics/IM004914.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp111/smoemaster_2007/2012%20pics/IM004896.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp111/smoemaster_2007/2012%20pics/IM004898.jpg

http://i403.photobucket.com/albums/pp111/smoemaster_2007/2012%20pics/IM004897.jpg

BringTheFlameThrower · Oct 22, 2012

Costeve how are those Kessills (sp? Sorry I iPhone) working out for you? I picked up a Magenta Comet from HID Hut and it saved a plant that was struuuuuuugling. All this nonsense about "you have to keep them close" there are models that have exposed LEDs, those you probably need to keep close, but what I've read is the max distance is about 24in, also LEDs only penetrate through anywhere between 2-6in of foliage. Eventually I'll get a garage or a better grow space and I would love to get some LEDs running in a decent starter tent/room. Well see. I'll report back on the Comet later next summer

I hav my seedlings under a T5 veg bulb right now. Looking pretty good actually. Need to add pics to the GLOG

Here's a great write up - https://growershouse.com/blog/led-grow-light-comparison-test-review-kessil-v-prosource-v-california-light-works-v-haight-solid-state/

smokemaster · Oct 22, 2012

The angle of the LED determines how close it has to be to the plant.

In my case,Most times mine could be a lot farther away but they are already in MY way so until I get a few cooked leaves they stay put..

The 10mm LEDs are 30 and 40 degree angles.
The stars are all over the place from 80 degree to 120.

Costeve · Oct 22, 2012

The kessils are doing great, I do prefer the 350 model over the 150. The 350 seem to run cooler, I guess better heat management.

And yes I do keep them close to the canopy.

Ausmith · Oct 22, 2012

First, feel sorry for jacking the thread.

After looking at the responses, it's clear that many issues are being mixed. I think we can look at 3 major topics here:

1. Are LEDs a viable light source for growing pepper plants indoors?
If the answer here is no, then you can ignore the next two questions.

2. Are LEDs a more cost effective option vs. other light sources for indoor growing?

3. If cost and other practical considerations aren't a concern what is the best light source for an indoor grow?

Another thread that needs to be explored is WHY grow indoors? When growing dope, their are obvious reasons to grow inside vs. outside, but why for peppers? Personally, I'm growing indoors because I am interested in the technology and it's more of a hobby. I guess I like geeking out on the whole process.

For me, and my proposed experiment, I guess I am a mix of 1. and 2. above. I'm just curious to see the results of flourescent vs LED in terms of the harvest. Maybe learn something along the way.

I hope to be able to find the best solution for myself, not unlike Smokemaster.

So on the geek stuff. I started doing a little research today. I might have been a little ambitous with my goals. First I need size out the space (which is a factor for me), determine the number and type of plants, and then rough out a design.

Of course, if we want this to be a reasonable experiment, we need to control as many of the variables as possible. This is a reasonable expectation, where the light source will be the primary difference allowing us to see how that affects plant growth and production.

I have a bit of learning to do on the LED components, but I have found what I think is a decent source for the supplies.

When I get a little further I will make a seperate thread here.

sosl0w · Oct 23, 2012

I'm using 4 solarflare full cycle lights and they seem to be working just fine for me.

Ignore the yellowish Jalepeno plant that I brought in from outside in the cold. It will recover shortly. Sorry for the shitty cell pics, but you get the idea.

You can buy shitty ebay lights and such with 1-3w leds in them but don't think you will ever grow plants to this size with them. You absolutely need a light with 5w leds for penetration purposes.

And yes i get pods.

Flakes · Oct 23, 2012

sosl0w said:
I'm using 4 solarflare full cycle lights and they seem to be working just fine for me. Ignore the yellowish Jalepeno plant that I brought in from outside in the cold. It will recover shortly. Sorry for the shitty cell pics, but you get the idea.

You can buy shitty ebay lights and such with 1-3w leds in them but don't think you will ever grow plants to this size with them. You absolutely need a light with 5w leds for penetration purposes.

And yes i get pods.

You've got $1000+ worth of lights? Jesus, how many plants are you growing?

LeeRoy · Oct 23, 2012

Ausmith said:
After looking at the responses, it's clear that many issues are being mixed. I think we can look at 3 major topics here:

1. Are LEDs a viable light source for growing pepper plants indoors?
If the answer here is no, then you can ignore the next two questions.

Yes. Without question, LEDs are a viable light source for growing pepper plants indoors.

2. Are LEDs a more cost effective option vs. other light sources for indoor growing?

To me, this is by far the biggest question. In my opinion (take it for what it's worth), at the present point in time LED's are on the verge of being more cost effective, but may not quite be there depending on what exactly you compare them to.

3. If cost and other practical considerations aren't a concern what is the best light source for an indoor grow?

LEDs are an incredibly good candidate for the "best" light source if price and other factors are held constant. But there are too many variables that come into play in each situation to proclaim anything "the best."

sosl0w · Oct 23, 2012

Flakes said:
You've got $1000+ worth of lights? Jesus, how many plants are you growing?

I initially started my grow with a hydroponics setup but quickly found out that the setup i built was to small for the plants i was growing. So i switched back to soil and fabric pots. I started with 30 plants and have focused down to around 7 now. Which i plan to grow into small trees!

I want a brain strain plant taller than me!
I'm going to start another 15ish or so variaties soon and grow them out. I'll pick out the ones i like and keep them as well. My tent can fit quite a bit more than what I have in it atm.

LeeRoy · Oct 23, 2012

sosl0w said:
I'm using 4 solarflare full cycle lights and they seem to be working just fine for me.

How high above the plant canopy are you keeping your fixture? From the pix it looks like it could be 3 feet or more. Also, the 5 watt LED's can generate some heat - much more so than the 1 to 3 watt ones. I know the Solar Flare itself has a built-in cooling fan - is heat an issue in your tent? Do you need to ventilate it to regulate the temp?

sosl0w · Oct 23, 2012

LeeRoy said:
How high above the plant canopy are you keeping your fixture? From the pix it looks like it could be 3 feet or more. Also, the 5 watt LED's can generate some heat - much more so than the 1 to 3 watt ones. I know the Solar Flare itself has a built-in cooling fan - is heat an issue in your tent? Do you need to ventilate it to regulate the temp?

I've had best results with the lights 14-18 inches above the plants. I have them higher now because the plants vary in size and i'm not really trying to grow them bigger real quickly so having them farther away doesn't hurt them, they still get enough light to produce pods, just not as much needed to grow like crazy.

As far as heat goes, they do put off some heat but nothing to major. My tent has good ventilation holes that i can open or close depending on the temperature. In the middle of the summer i had all of the vents open and temps were right around 80-82 degrees. The tent is in my garage so its always slightly cooler than outside. Since its gotten colder i've had to slowly close the vents on the tent to keep the temperature right. Which is good, the longer i have to put off turning on my space heater to keep things warm the better!

Skinty · Nov 6, 2012

I've been reading this thread and skimming over it in places and returning to it. I'm just trying to get a few bulbs with in a couple of desklamps for the chilli plants that I have brought in and haven't finished fruiting yet. I can't afford a grow tent, reflector or any kind of specialist equipment at the moment. I just want to supplement the natural light coming through the window and to help overwinter the plants, also perhaps to help my carnivorous sundew plants survive over winter. I'll set it all up properly next year perhaps but for the moment I'm interested in experimenting with what I can do with household equipment. I've never bothered with lights when growing seedlings. I just plant them in a seedling tray and put them on the window sill.

Anyway, here's a thought. One of the arguments against buying LEDs is that their initial cost means that you need to use them for many years before you save enough in electricity to make it worthwhile. This is where the pot growers might bring the price down. They get caught by the police using thermal imaging equipment so they might start using LEDs in bulk which run significantly cooler and bring down the price of them due to the economies of scale. That's if they aren't stealing the HID lights from Panamera or Cayenne drivers that is ...

http://www.autoevolution.com/news/porsche-cayenne-and-panamera-headlights-stolen-to-become-marijuana-grow-lights-51386.html

Anyway, I found this link interesting, especially the comments section:

Do Expensive Grow Lights Matter?

At the university where I study/work, lots and lots of researchers grow plants in special “growth chambers” — sealed boxes which allow them to minutely control and record temperature and humidity for careful experiments. And what sorts of lights to they use in them? Plain old shop lights and florescent bulbs. And yes, they grow plants to flower and fruiting in them. Greenhouse growers use much more expensive high intensity discharge lamps — but their only advantage is that they produce a lot of light from a small fixture, so they don’t block the sun during the day. Growing indoors, just get a couple shop lights, and surround them with something painted white or covered with aluminum foil to reflect the light back on the plants. For just a few seedlings, you can even use those spiral compact florescent bulbs in a couple cheap desk lamps positioned right over your seedlings.

Flakes · Nov 7, 2012

Skinty said:
Anyway, here's a thought. One of the arguments against buying LEDs is that their initial cost means that you need to use them for many years before you save enough in electricity to make it worthwhile. This is where the pot growers might bring the price down. They get caught by the police using thermal imaging equipment so they might start using LEDs in bulk which run significantly cooler and bring down the price of them due to the economies of scale. That's if they aren't stealing the HID lights from Panamera or Cayenne drivers that is ...

There are way to few garage pot-growers to make a dent in the LED industry. What you need is a government imposed directive disallowing the sale of flurescent and HID lamps - what basically happened to high-watt incandescents in EU, then you might see some change. But even with that, CFL prices (and other alternatives) have remained pretty high.

bluemeanietsi · Nov 7, 2012

I never understood why LED lighting was so expensive when individual LEDs are so cheap lol.

Ausmith · Nov 21, 2012

idosimon said:
I don't think there is much discussion in terms of LED vs. CFL because LEDs are regarded to be better than CFLs. If you do want to try this experiment I would recommend a HO T5 or VHO T5 vs. LEDs.

I'm also planning on doing a MH vs. LED test for vegetative growth for my senior project, so I'm trying to contact some universities about helping me out in terms of money and space.

I'd say if you want to compare growth you need beforehand to make sure everything is exactly the same except for the light. Also, I would say that you need to create parameters for what determines successful growth beforehand - things such as vigor, leaf size, stalk size, number of fruits/pods, ripening time, etc...

Hi all. Sorry for the delay. Been busy with other things. Please see my other post in Grow Tech about the new set-up. I've got a professional grade tent to control the environment and I've opted for a T5 HO set-up to start. I've started a variety of new plants that I plan to put in there when the time is right. I will let them grow to maturity and the first harvest.

When that is done I will switch over to an LED set-up and grow the same plants, from the same seed stock, under those lights to maturity and first harvest.

Question I have now is.... 8x 54watt T5 HO lamps now, what is the fair comparison for an LED set-up?

LeeRoy · Nov 25, 2012

Ausmith said:
Question I have now is.... 8x 54watt T5 HO lamps now, what is the fair comparison for an LED set-up?

That's a good question. IMO, I think the best comparison would be based on price. You would need to find an LED fixture or set of fixtures that totaled in the ballpark to the cost of the 8 x T5 fixture. You should probably figure in the relative cost of electricity and maintenance over a fixed period of time, say 3 years.

So maybe compute a total cost of ownership of the 8 x T5 fixture as initial cost + 3 yrs. electricity + 3 yrs. replacement bulbs = TCO. Do the same thing for an LED fixture to find an initial cost that will bring the TCO in the same ballpark as the T5 TCO. The TCO's don't have to be exactly equal, but maybe within 10% or so of each other.

That seems to me to be the only reasonable way to do a comparison.

Ausmith · Nov 26, 2012

LeeRoy said:
That's a good question. IMO, I think the best comparison would be based on price. You would need to find an LED fixture or set of fixtures that totaled in the ballpark to the cost of the 8 x T5 fixture. You should probably figure in the relative cost of electricity and maintenance over a fixed period of time, say 3 years.

So maybe compute a total cost of ownership of the 8 x T5 fixture as initial cost + 3 yrs. electricity + 3 yrs. replacement bulbs = TCO. Do the same thing for an LED fixture to find an initial cost that will bring the TCO in the same ballpark as the T5 TCO. The TCO's don't have to be exactly equal, but maybe within 10% or so of each other.

That seems to me to be the only reasonable way to do a comparison.

That makes sense. It will be a while before I dive into the LED portion. I just got the T5's up and running - trying to figure out what the plants like best in terms of light placement, new watering schedule, etc.... The plants were definatley stressed when I fired up all 8 lights.