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shopping looking to buy LED light, opinions?

The cost thing is what I keep going back and forth on. LED fixtures have dropped in price, but so have HID's and florescents. .From a straight technical perspective I have no doubt that LEDs offer a more efficient lighting solution per unit of energy consumed, but right now the initial cost is so much higher that I can't get satisfied that you'd really save over the long term. But it seems like it's starting to get close.

I've got a couple of old HIDs (440 Watt Sun Agro, 400 Watt MH, and 1000 watt HPS) that I'm sticking with for the time being. The LED fixtures keep getting nicer and nicer, and one of these days I'm going to break down and blow $1000 - $1500 on a sweet LED setup. Just waiting to convince myself the price / performance ratio on LEDs has come within the ball park of what I already have.
 
The last few weeks I've been searching the internet for opinions about LED lights compared to CFLs. I can understand why LED lights are hyped up by the companies selling them and I can understand why people are cynical. At first I thought that people were just wanting to convince themselves that their ultra expensive lighting system that runs at a 400 watts must be better because they have invested so much in it. But then I read a few reports from people saying that they had bought LED lights and were dissatisfied with them.

Yet what troubles me is that I have yet to really find a decent explanation as to why LEDs shouldn't be as good. I'm forgetting for the moment about the economics of paying up front compared to saving on the electricity bill.

If LEDs can be used to put out the same lumens / PAR / wave lengths etc as some CFL or metal-halide then why should they be worse for growing plants? And if using them ultimately saves us money then why the resistance to them? I haven't come across a good explanation yet but some people say they get better results from other types of lights, yet nothing definitive.

I'm beginning to wonder if there is some side effect that we haven't take into account yet. I can think of two. LEDs run cooler than other lights, and they don't produce as much UV.

Could the extra heat from a CFL or HID help with transpiration and the movement of nutrients around the plant for example? The sun normally warms a plant from the top. Maybe some plants from hot climates have evolved to be dependent upon this?

I know that plants do not photo-synthesise UV, but they might still make use of it. Evolution has a habit of overfitting and becoming dependent on certain features of the environment. So maybe UV light is used as some kind of indicator as to how cloudy the weather is compared to the level of light the plant is receiving and whether the plant is growing in an open or covered area? After all, the deeper underwater you go the more quickly red gets filtered out compared to blue. Could something similar be happening with overcast conditions and the level of UV hitting plants?

I can't find the link now but a few days ago I came across a web page that advocated adding a single CFL bulb to a grow tent using LEDs because it changed the potency of indoor grown cannabis. It would be good to do a series of experiments with a tray of seedlings. That way you can average out the results.

- LEDs vs CFL, same light output and wavelengths,
- LEDS + UV light
- CFL with cooling
 
This pic shows why most experienced growers of certain plants will not use leds.

HDXSB.jpg

Image was from http://www.supercloset.com/blog/led-vs-hps-grow-lights-showdown-%E2%80%9Chydroponic-tomato-grow-off%E2%80%9D-in-the-supercloset-deluxe-grow-boxes.

That is a 800-1000$ led light compared to a 400 watt hid set up so about 200-400$ if you include fan, etc. Coverage area also plays a big role since for the price of one of those leds you could have 4 1000 watt setups.

Depending on the individual leds might be the way to go, but they will not give better results.
 
In the comparison you posted Lock, the HPS used over twice the power consumption as the LED. Do you think that's a fair comparison? Maybe, but you have to consider this.
 
Good point Nate, but what you lose in yield on certain plants will certainly be more than what you save in power. So you have to figure out how many harvests (which will yield less) you have to go thru before you recoup the upfront cost of the light.

I understand power consumption plays a role for certain people as does heat so it really depends on the individual needs.
 
You can only judge EACH LED Panel by what that particular one does.
Adds are to sell product and are usually very creative or down right lies.

The above post is like eating a sour orange and saying ALL oranges are sour.

I do agree some what about commercial stuff,in my experience,most commercial stuff is either over priced ,and or, not worth buying.
 
smokemaster said:
You can only judge EACH LED Panel by what that particular one does.
Adds are to sell product and are usually very creative or down right lies.

The above post is like eating a sour orange and saying ALL oranges are sour.

I do agree some what about commercial stuff,in my experience,most commercial stuff is either over priced ,and or, not worth buying.
Click to expand...

Except that LED panels aren't like oranges because, among other things, you can't just buy another one if one is sour. Not to mention you might actually be buying very expensive lemons, expecting them to taste sweet, while you've got perfectly good, sweet citruses growing everywhere.

And while it's true that you can't really make a competent general statement about the LED technology and it's effectiveness in growing plants based on a sample of one (1), it's not completely stupid to come to a conclusion that an LED TV is better than your old CRT, even based on that small sample, because unlike oranges which come in all shapes, sizes, varieties and degrees or ripeness, the technology in that LED TV is pretty much the same on all LED TVs, with only slight differences.

Once more data is available, the situation might change and those expensive citruses might become a viable alternative, until then there's just no way to differentiate between an expensive lemon and an expensive sour orange with potential. Hell, maybe some of us simply don't like oranges, and some do, and that's all there is to it - unless there's a clear winner, I much prefer the cheaper (upfront cost) alternative, because it allows me to be more flexible in my choices. One might easily be more comfortable with the opposite situation though, without necessarily suffering any financial downsides.
 
I think you're missing the comparison of fruits. You need to put $ aside and compare output/power draw. Now many LED light setups can you use before you reach the same power consumption of the other system. If I say "gee, this $300 led light sucks compared to my 100w equiv cfl" but my led setup only puts out 1/10the the amount of light for 1/100th the amount of power, I can add a heck of a lot more LEDs.

1 light to 1 light isn't a comparison.
 
You've got to pick a unit of comparison and stick with it. If you're doing a watt to watt comparison I seriously doubt you could beat LED's with any commercial grow light I've heard of. If you're comparing dollar to dollar, which to me is more representative of how most people make purchase decisions, the comparison becomes much more unclear.
 
When choosing a lighting setup it would make sense to compare lighting output not money.

"I'm looking to buy a car with horsepower, I can get a ford fusion which is much cheaper, or I can get a top fuel dragster - both have horsepower"
 
I'd say it's more like a watt per Lumen to watt per lumen comparison thing.

BUT it would have to be in the highest percentage of plant usable wave lengths for each light source.
Some sources might put out a ton of Lumens but only some of it is plant usable...

It might be hard to compare some sources because of the way vendors cherry pick the data or test in ways that will sell their product.That goes for any light source I'd think in general.

As I posted above,there is a lot of either over priced stuff and or junk out there that is advertised very creatively.

That is why I decided to make my own and experimented 3+ years with various LEDS to get what works for me,the way I grow my plants etc.
Most of the stuff I read on the net is by people who never used LEDs or bought junk at various prices and got burned or people who are pushing their product of choice.

My LED $ was won (free $,didn't cost me a cent to win it) and I enjoyed playing with them.I assemble them while I'm at work so I don't see a downside for me.

Any plant I've put under them likes what I'm using now.

99% of my plants have been peppers.
 
bluemeanietsi said:
I think you're missing the comparison of fruits. You need to put $ aside and compare output/power draw. Now many LED light setups can you use before you reach the same power consumption of the other system. If I say "gee, this $300 led light sucks compared to my 100w equiv cfl" but my led setup only puts out 1/10the the amount of light for 1/100th the amount of power, I can add a heck of a lot more LEDs.

1 light to 1 light isn't a comparison.
Click to expand...

I don't understand what you're saying. If you mean one has high upfront costs and lower running costs, while the other is cheap to buy, but uses much more electricity to operate, then I think I made it clear in my previous posts that I understood this trade-off.

My only additional point in the last post was that, unless one is clearly more cost-effective than the other while providing roughly the same quality light, I'll always choose the one with lower upfront costs as a minimizing-risk strategy, while someone else might have reasons to choose the other, with both options having basically the same "expected value".

smokemaster said:
My LED $ was won (free $,didn't cost me a cent to win it) and I enjoyed playing with them.I assemble them while I'm at work so I don't see a downside for me.
Click to expand...

Well, I think free LEDs win every time...
 
I have read this thread from beginning to end and I think now my Hangover is actually getting worse!
Seriously, If we are all trying to save money on one light source or another why the hell are we growing peppers in the first place when you can order fresh pods online. Sheeesh.

LeeRoy said:
True. But clearly that's advertising BS. You don't have to know much about growing under lights to see that that is too good to be true, I mean, I don't have a huge d*&k but I'm pretty sure ExtenZe is bogus. If that 28 watt grow light and ExtenZe both worked like the ads promised then everyone would be growing all their vegetables in the kitchen because their d*&k would be too big to walk to the store.
Click to expand...
That right there is some funny Chit!
 
stickman said:
I bought a "vigorous veg" grow-spot LED light last week and sent them an Email request for more information abouit the output of the lamp in lumens and got this reply...

Good morning Stickman and thank you for this email inquiry.
[font=Calibri"]The question you asked is somewhat common but are not really applicable to LED grow lights. Here's why. [/font]

[font=Calibri"]LED grow lights are not measured in lumens because a lumen is a measurement of light that is tailored to the human eye (primarly green/yellow) and photometric light meters are designed to measure the intensity and brightness of this type of light at the SOURCE. This allows humans to measure and standardize brightness levels from one WHITE light to the next (for easy comparison). LED Grow lights will ALWAYS have a lower LUMENS value then an HID grow light because of the colors used. For example, if you look at the light spectrum the colors are brightest in the middle - green and yellow. As you move to the right of the spectrum towards red, the color gets darker and as you approach far red the light iss invisible when you hit infra-red (heat). Moving in the other direction to the left of green you have blue moving towards violet and then ultraviolet (UV). Again, the light darkens as you move away from green and yellow. The point is, red and blue will always appear darker to HUMANS (thus a lower lumens value) but this is actually the light plants want and need most. [/font]

[font=Calibri"]An HID light hung 20 feet in the air may produce 10,000 lumens. If you put that same light 1 foot over the plants it is still 10,000 lumens. But this does not tell you how much PAR light (quality and quantity) is actually being delivered to the plants. What is important is the photon flux density (or how much light is delivered to the plant measured in micromoles) and PAR values (Photosynthetic Active Radiation). This is where LEDs excel. PAR values for LED lights are 100% meaning all the light emitted is used for plant growth vs traditional lighting (fluorescents and HIDs) where PAR values are closer to 20% (UV/IR and other colors in the spectrum created but not used). Trying to compare the lumens rating of an HID grow light to an LED grow light is an apples to oranges comparison. [/font][font=Calibri"]Put another way, plants could care less about lumens.[/font]

[font=Calibri"]When lighting is represented in Kelvin (temperature) it is again, telling you the temperature of the light. (warm, cool, cooler). These numbers only reflect the tactinic value of the lights. A light at 2800K is very warm and will emit a yellow/orangish effect similar to that of an HPS. A 6500K light is akin to daylight and this most resembles a metal halide. [/font]

[font=Calibri"]Our LED grow lights target the spectrums needed for growth. They are not white light and therefore cannot be represented in Kelvin. It is important to note that if you would like LED lights to be at a certain Kelvin rating we can fabricate those for you. We can create all white lights of our products in any Kelvin necessary. We custom fabricated lights for the USDA and EPA. In these cases they wanted a warm light fixture for their cotton production. We supplied them with 2800-3100K lights and they were very pleased with their results. Our stock, out of the box GrowPanel Pros are full cycle lights and do not require any modifications.[/font]

[font=Calibri"]Again, thank you for your inquiry and let me know how I can assist further.[/font]

I'll follow up with them to try to choke out a useable answer to the question " How can I know in advance your product will provide what my plants will need to grow strong and healthy?" Any help in forming the question would be appreciated.
Click to expand...
Never got a satisfactory answer from them, and the first time I tried to use the bulb in question it broke. This is a cheap piece of crap! Don't buy it! I was screwing the bulb into the Edison socket in a droplight and the base separated from the housing causing the internal wiring to twist and short out. I paid $85 for the bulb originally, so I'm glad I kept the reciept. Took it back for a refund.
 
Post #83 in this thread showing the photo of the HID vs LED tomato grow is a bit misleading. A person experienced with using an LED fixture would have placed it MUCH closer to the plant foliage (couple inches, perhaps) to increase light penetration. Compare grow results with both lights placed a couple inches from the tops of the tomato plants. The plants under the HID system would be cooked in short order. Also, these are tomatoes - what are the reservoir temperatures? This variable must also be consistent for both grows if we are to compare the light systems fairly as warmth greatly affects the initial vegetative growth of tomatoes (fruit set being another issue, altogether). FWIW, I'm zone 9 and do better without the added heat from a hid torch and elaborate cooling / ventilation systems. To compliment my crees, I use the T5 and it does a great job providing the added spectrum minus the fire hazard and noise pollution associated with metal halide / high pressure sodium. I grow vegetables only and because of that the UV radiation is not imperative for results as it maybe for other growers. The best and least confusing part about all of this discussion? You've got light options GALORE and the prices are going down for all varieties, makes and models. Great results can be had from any of the systems discussed provided that they are used correctly. There are advantages / disadvantages to them all and I've discovered the most "bang for the buck" when I use different light systems in combinations. If you are wanting to get into an LED system and be totally blown away, you may as well wait until the 5watt diodes become common and saturate the market. When affordable light arrays are upwards from the 5watt diode, the game will change. I wish you the very best of luck in your grow!
 
I think there is no BEST light source for every grow type people use.

For instance.

I LIKE/use 1watt LEDS for "the WAY I USE/need them/LEDS "to work/light my SHELVES.

It really pisses some people off at times when I post what I think,stuff I learned by doing,for MY grow set up.

They (LEDS) will not be cool used as a Halide substitute(at this time,but Halides are something I can't use even if I wanted to).

I use tons of 1 watt stars and 10mm LEDS on shelves mostly.

MY goal is to supply my plants with every wave length of light between 440nm and 475nm and 615nm and 670nm at at least 2000+lumens at pot height.
The sun is something like 35,000Lux here as an average.
LEDS ,placed vertically and horizontally give me a lot more than that on my shelves.
Most nm are plant usable...

With the smaller percentage of green,yellow etc. that LEDS do put out I think I have most PLANT USABLE wave lengths covered in general.
I think that since a plant only needs a small percentage of the other wave lengths I'm covered.

I also get more Lumens per panel and more wave lengths per panel from 1 watt or less LEDS than I can get from higher watt LEDs placed farther apart (less overlap of NM).

I can get 9+ wave lengths from 125 10mm Leds on a 12in X 7in. panel or a 16inX16in star panel(84LEDS) in more Lumens than using a higher watt,hotter LED.
My sheves are about 4ft. X 18in X 20in. tall.

ONCE AGAIN-THESE ARE DESIGNED FOR MY GROW SET UP.
What I do...use them for.

I don't have to cool 1 watt LEDS other than mount them on a 1/8th in thick sheet of aluminium.
My panels flush mount to anything(= more grow space on my shelves,plus by mounting them on metal racks I get even more heat dissapation that probably keeps my pots soil temps warmer so over watering is less of a hassle).

I use 1 watt and smaller LEDS because they come in more wave lengths than 3watt and up LEDs.

Remember I think the closer to covering ALL the Plant Usable wave lengths that the sun puts out the better.No matter what you are growing.
IF my home brew stuff covers all the bases then in theory they should grow almost any plant...

I found no difference between 3 watt LEDS and 1watt LEDS except I can get 1 watt ones cheaper and in a few more wave lengths.
10 mm 1/2-1 watt come in wave lengths and a LOT higher(they average 100lm) LM. most stars don't.

I don't use a grow tent,just wire racks ,so I'm replacing Fluoros with LEDS basically, though I do hang a few around some decent sized plants for seed and year round pods.

If I had to choose something other than LEDS I'd go with T5's for the way MY grow is set up.
I came into some free $ and since I LOVE new toys,LEDS were my choice...

I originaly was looking into T5's but at the time they didn't have the K I wanted and it was $80.00 for just the fixture(2 bulb).
The bulbs came in only a few different K and Lumens back then.

I see a LOT of T5 choices these days and the prices are still high but are dropping.Bulb choices are WAY better too.

I think that once you get past the learning curve of using ANY new light source ,you have to then decide if it fits your grow.

I think all the BS about different light sources in adds is messing up peoples way of thinking.

People read into the sales stuff and really should be trying to get the best source for THEIR grow set up.

Halides or T5's might be best for tents.

T5's or LEDS are better for shelves...OR whatever.

People get too much into all the crap posted about different light sources and forget that you don't need to use whatever light source for every grow set up/their grow.

Using the sun 18in from your starts isn't a good idea neither is using a flashlight.

Forget the sales crap and so called specs by sales adds in general.
Figure out what YOU actually need for your grow.
from people actually doing what you are thinking about setting up for YOUR grow.

Do you need a 3Ft. X 3ft area covered with X amount of PLANT usable Lumens or are you lighting up a shelf.

What you think YOU need rather than what the NET says is COOL or you MUST use.

Ya ,IF they come up with 5+watt,100+lumen LEDS that run cool as my 1 watt LEDS,in more nm, I'll buy them...

But right now,lumens,heat and wave lengths I use aren't in the 3-5watt ballpark.
They just won't cover the bases I want them too and cost way too much to set up.

I see a LOT of White Spot light LED choices advertised these days.

The Lumens are getting close to the low end of Halides while using a lot less juice.
Old ones just a year or so ago maxed at about 900lm.

A buddy just set his boat up with LED spots that look to the eye as being REALLY blue.
He replaced Halides with them and they might be even a tiny bit brighter than his old halides.
I don't know the LM of either but will ask...
When I go out with him next time I want to bring my DIY spectrometer to see the bands of wave lengths the lights put out...

I think that white LEDS can possibly turn into a higher lumen output with more plant usable light than halides.
White LEDS are ,in general cheaper than colored ones and can put out a lot more LM..
White made by LEDS are a mix of Red,Blue and Green.In what wave lengths is debatable.
Might be in ones plants don't use much of...
Will be interesting to play with once I'm done playing with what I already have.

Gotta win some more $ so I can get free toys to play with.

I hear good things about using car ,12v., bulbs too(Halogen?).
BUT they only cover a specific Nm range,mostly blue from what I hear,but in tons of cheap LMs.

My panels are made for lighting a small area with as little heat as possible.
My grow space is closed in,no ventilation of any kind.

T12's were great but then they started selling T8's and T5's and less bulbs in the T12 K that I wanted to use.
T8's put out too much heat,didn't come in the Lumens and K I use.

LEDS were my only choice at the time.

Plus I like playing with new toys. :)

Once I've tired of playing with what I have now and can afford new toys I think white LEDs will be next IF they keep getting cheaper,brighter and are in better plant usable wave lengths.

So far white Leds that I've played with were not very good.I tried Cool White and Warm White mixes that were useless as far as my starts were concerned.
But that was 3+ years ago with a bunch of 80LM. 10mm LEDS in both cool and warm white.

I never understood all this light penetration stuff.
How can a 5watt/30Lm Leds be better than a 1 watt 80lm Led in the same wave length?
IF the 5watt one puts out more of the rated nm than I see a possible difference in the LEDS as far as plant usable light goes when comparing single LEDs to each other.

Since there isn't a 5 watt LED,they are several LED chips in a single component..

Then why wouldn the same amount of a higher watt LED be any better than more lesser watt LEDS placed closer together that put out the same nm in more Lm.?
Same thing with using a 3 watt,35lm leds being better than 6 1 watt.80lm Leds?

What is with this thing about a 5watt 35Lm LED putting out super penetrating lm than a 1 watt or group of 1watt ,higher lm LEDs covering the same area with the same wave length?

I get more LM from 1 watt leds than 3 watt ones on the same sized panel.

1watt ones that I use are 50-80+lm and are placed a lot closer together than I can place 3watt+ leds on my panels.

AS I said,I'm lighting up grow shelves not using them to light up a tent or grow room.
Too much LED,Halide or other light source stuff is posted out of context to sell product in general.

Also in general,more bang for your buck is somewhat debatable because of the tech changing on any given day...
Like computers.buy the top of the line stuff and 2 days latter it's outdated depending on who upgraded what at the time.

Figure out what you think you need-sq Ft coverage with X amount of Lumens in plant usable nm.
Then weed them out as far as cost etc. to buy and run.

A lot of people are spending way more on stuff they don't need-overkill for their grow.
It's on the net so it gots ta be true. :)

There are TONS of stuff out there comparing apples to oranges.
I'm going by stuff that I USE,My experiences,not what will work for every persons grow.
Just posting my opinions about the way I do things in MY garden.
Your milage WILL vary.
All LEDS.Fluoros etc. aren't the same.

PS. As a side note,I see a lot of decent LED panels in afordable or more afordable prices these days but they still don't do what I want from my home made stuff.
Max. amounts of different plant usable wave lengths and Lumens are a big part of my quest for the perfect LED panels for MY grow.
If another light source did what I want I'd play with them too,eventually.
But so far no other light source offers the control I can get from LEDs in general.
I can't adjust other light sources according to what I think I need with other sources.
You have to at least change bulbs or whatever.
As I posted,I eventually want a light source I can just hook up to my timers and watch my plants grow.
Do Starts and set pods...
 
My first experience was with LEDs and I'm very happy with them. I notice my plants greener and more bushy because I keep the light closer to the plants. Now I'm trying T5's HO, and it seems to be working good except that my seedlings aren't as green as the ones under LEDs. I tried LEDs and I like em, and now T5's in about a month I post up my results and observations. I do see a lot of hate for LEDs because people haven't tried them or they're out of their reach. I'm with Smokemaster, custom will always be better than commercial LEDs. I built my own with only $30 bucks, and I works like a charm.

,Vegas
 
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