fermenting Milled Mash to Vinegar Ratio

[emanphoto]

I have a big ol' bowl of already milled jalapeño mash (3800 mls to be exact!) waiting to be bottled as I am REALLY obsessing over the vinegar to milled mash ratio. I guess milled mash could also be referred to as sauce since it already has that smooth consistency.
 
Normally I just use a recipe that got me started on this whole chili ferment madness, but that recipe is based on achieving a Tobasco-like result, but better and thicker of course.  But it also uses a lot more vinegar than what I think is needed here based strictly on taste
 
The milled mash already has a pH of 3.0 so the sourness is there.  I can see taking it a little further in that direction via vinegar but I only want to use the minimum amount necessary for bottling.  I plan to sterilize my bottles, fill with the sauce, and then boil in the bottle for 15 mins before capping them.
I do not plan on cooking the sauce as vinegar is there plus a high margin of safety via original pH.
 
Please comment on this above method if you see anything amiss!
 
Recipe for this batch is as follows:
 
JALAPENOS 3400 GMS AFTER SMOKING
 
GARLIC 5 HEADS 229 GMS AFTER SMOKING
 
11 SHALLOTS 65 GMS
 
3682 TOTAL GRAMS
 
110 GRAMS SALT
 
4 CUPS OF WATER
 
10 ALSPICE BALLS ADDED
 
Water is used to dissolve the salt.  This was fermented over 30 days so far.  
 
In the Sauce making 101 section I read,
"Acid ratios- based on several of the approved recipes in the links above, most have an average of 1 cup white vinegar to 10 cups of veggies. However, I’m not a food scientist or process authority. This is just a suggestion based on approved recipes. Different ingredients will effect the finished pH of the sauce. "
 
Is 1:10 ratio the minimum for food safety?  My vinegar is organic Thai pineapple vinegar.  
 
Thank you for any comments that can help me decide my next move!

 

[nice.chili]

Not sure how much this will help, but for straight-up Tabasco style fermented hot sauce I used a ratio of 0.6 vinegar to 1.0 of peppers. Then ferment for a little time longer.
The consistency is the same as Tabasco sauce, but quite different in taste - I use Habaneros and Chardonnay white wine vinegar. Even using Habaneros the heat level is only very slightly higher than Tabasco. (A long ferment seems to do the job in this regard...)
 
Is this in the area of quantity of vinegar that is '...a lot more vinegar than what is needed...'?

 

[emanphoto]

Yes exactly!  It's good to know the high end as a benchmark.  Thanks!

 
 
Is this in the area of quantity of vinegar that is '...a lot more vinegar than what is needed...'?

 
This is the recipe I started fermenting from before I discovered THP.  He gives his starting weight of the chilies but not the volume after adding water & salt and fermenting.  237 mls = 1 cup
I also use 3% as per this forum in my ferment, not as per the recipe below.  
 
 
Fermented, Tabasco-Style Hot Sauce


Prep Time
30 mins


Total Time
30 mins

 

There are lots of variables going on with this seemingly simple sauce, so don't freak out if it doesn't taste exactly like Tabasco. It'll still be great. Your chiles will affect the flavor, as will where they were grown. So will your salt -- don't use iodized salt, it will muddy the flavor -- and your vinegar. Tabasco's private stock is made with white wine vinegar, and it is noticeably better tasting than the stuff you buy in the store. Use a good vinegar. And you really need the toasted oak cubes to get the full Tabasco effect. They store their mash in oak barrels, and unless you are making that much sauce, the oak cubes are the way to go. You can buy them at any winemaking shop or online. Try to let the mash ferment as long as you can. Every month you let it go makes it better. Finally, this recipe can be scaled up or down. Just remember, the key ratio is 2 percent salt by weight of the chopped-up chiles.

Course: Condiment 
Cuisine: American 
Serves: 1 quart
Author: Hank Shaw


Ingredients

• 3 1/3 pounds chile peppers, about 1.5 kilos
• 1 ounce kosher salt, about 37 grams
• 2 cups water
• 3 ounces oak cubes
• 4 cups white wine vinegar
• 1 teaspoon xanthan gum (optional)

Instructions

1. 
   Roughly chop the chiles and compost the stems. Blitz the chiles in a food processor or blender with the salt and water until you get a rough paste or slurry, depending on how much moisture there is in the peppers themselves. I keep the seeds in the chiles, but if you want a milder sauce, remove them.
   
2. 
   Put the mash into quart mason jars and cap them loosely. "Burp" the caps at least once a day to let out escaping gases and let air in. The chiles will ferment like this for at least a week, and sometimes up to 3 weeks. When the chiles settle down, add the oak cubes, distributing them evenly throughout the jars. Tighten the lids and store the jars in a cool, dark place. I kept mine in my salami fridge, which is 55°F. A basement is fine, as would a fridge. Tabasco keeps their mash barrels at ambient temperatures, which in Louisiana can top 100°F. I am working on a batch fermented this way now, and I see no reason it won't work. Don't let the mash freeze, however.
   
3. 
   Keep the mash like this no less than 3 months, and up to 2 years. When you are ready to finish the sauce, mix the mash with the vinegar.
   
4. 
   You now have two choices: You can do what Tabasco does and return the mix to the jars, shake them every day for a month and then strain out the pulp and seeds. Or, do what I do and keep all that pulp, which will give the sauce body and thickness. If you choose my method, you will need to really blend the sauce and stabilize it -- otherwise the sauce will eventually separate and will need to be shaken up before each use. To do so, dissolve the xanthan gum in 2 tablespoons of water and add it to the blender. Blend for a solid minute. Let the sauce rest for 1 hour before bottling so any trapped air in sauce (from the blending process) can escape. Bottle and store. The sauce will keep for a year or more.
   

 
Note that this is a long-ferment hot sauce. Click here for a quicker hot sauce recipe.

 

 

[nice.chili]

Standard disclaimer: I'm not a food scientist or anything... 
 
The pH of your mash/sauce is already low (shelf stable being less than 4.6) so I imagine vinegar is then, in a way, a lot for taste. Basic white vinegar giving you something like Tabasco sauce whereas good white wine vinegar makes it quite different. Or as you propose, pineapple vinegar sounds interesting.
 
Time for an exercise in science? What's the pH of the vinegar? (I measured the vinegar I regularly used a long while back but have totally forgotten what it was.) By adding vinegar, presuming it's more acidic, will only make the mash/sauce pH go lower to a degree... 

 

[emanphoto]

In a previous batch I measured before and after adding pineapple vinegar.  The pH dropped from about 3.5 to 3.2 or something similar using the proportions of the Tabasco recipe I posted above.  So it doesn't change a lot if you go by just the numbers.  That batch was Thai chilies and too hot on its own so the vinegar's diluting effects of the spiciness was actually helping.
 

 

[Rabbit91476]

Rage for future reference. Ive had about 4# of habanero mad running in 5% sale and probiotics in a half gallon mason jar. For about 3 months. I may have to split it and add some cubes. And try it out. How many cube. If I separate them. In to tow 1/2 gallon jars.. then I will re apply. Fermentation kids. For a few more months

 

[salsalady]

The 1:10 ratio is for use with non-fermented vegetables that have no acidity.  If the mash is fermented to 3.0 pH, in theory, you do not need to add ANY vinegar....because it already is in a safe pH zone. 
 
This does not address the fact that if the sauce is not cooked or vinegar added, it will continue to ferment.  This topic is discussed and explain in the first post of This Thread and in more detail in the Last Post of that same thread. 
 
 

 
 
In the Sauce making 101 section I read,
"Acid ratios- based on several of the approved recipes in the links above, most have an average of 1 cup white vinegar to 10 cups of veggies. However, I’m not a food scientist or process authority. This is just a suggestion based on approved recipes. Different ingredients will effect the finished pH of the sauce. "
 
Is 1:10 ratio the minimum for food safety?  My vinegar is organic Thai pineapple vinegar.  
 
Thank you for any comments that can help me decide my next move!

 

[salsalady]

Standard disclaimer: I'm not a food scientist or anything... 
 
The pH of your mash/sauce is already low (shelf stable being less than 4.6) so I imagine vinegar is then, in a way, a lot for taste. Basic white vinegar giving you something like Tabasco sauce whereas good white wine vinegar makes it quite different. Or as you propose, pineapple vinegar sounds interesting.
 
Time for an exercise in science? What's the pH of the vinegar? (I measured the vinegar I regularly used a long while back but have totally forgotten what it was.) By adding vinegar, presuming it's more acidic, will only make the mash/sauce pH go lower to a degree... 

 distilled white vinegar is about 2.4pH
 
 
another website says this-
"So what you end up seeing are pH levels that are wildly different for vinegars of the same acidity. White distilled vinegar of 5% can range from a pH of 2.5 to 2.7 on average. Pineapple vinegar ranges from 2.8 to 2.9. Red and white wine vinegar can be low, 2.6 to 2.8 but this is helped by the other acids like tartaric acid from grapes. The highest is apple cider vinegar which is typically 3.3 to 3.5 at 5%. It is also one of the chemically more complex vinegars."
 

 

[emanphoto]

I measured the pH this morning of my pineapple vinegar and it is 2.2.
 

Standard disclaimer: I'm not a food scientist or anything... 
 
The pH of your mash/sauce is already low (shelf stable being less than 4.6) so I imagine vinegar is then, in a way, a lot for taste. Basic white vinegar giving you something like Tabasco sauce whereas good white wine vinegar makes it quite different. Or as you propose, pineapple vinegar sounds interesting.
 
Time for an exercise in science? What's the pH of the vinegar? (I measured the vinegar I regularly used a long while back but have totally forgotten what it was.) By adding vinegar, presuming it's more acidic, will only make the mash/sauce pH go lower to a degree... 

 

 

[emanphoto]

OK finally found the details on cooking.  So my plan was missing a step.  
Oops!  
I will endeavor to not burn it this time!  That was such a major pain when it happened before and a sad day and I was hoping that there was a workaround to avoid it ever again.  
I will sit there with a wooden spoon instead of leaving it unmonitored.
 
So the cooking of the sauce, with or without vinegar is necessary to stop the fermentation as vinegar alone is not enough.  In my limited experience, I've had a sauce continue bubbling even though a lot of vinegar was in the sauce.  
 
From there, the sauce goes into bottles.  I'll refrigerate something like 200mls and from there can add small measured amounts of vinegar to judge the taste and heat so I can decide what to do to the batch.  
 
"How long to cook the sauce? The minimum suggested cooking time is 10 minutes at a full rolling boil. The longer it cooks, the softer the pulp becomes and the thicker the sauce will get. You can simmer it for as long as you want. Keep it stirred so it doesn’t scorch on the bottom. If it gets too thick, add a little water, or other liquid."
 
 

 
The 1:10 ratio is for use with non-fermented vegetables that have no acidity.  If the mash is fermented to 3.0 pH, in theory, you do not need to add ANY vinegar....because it already is in a safe pH zone. 
 
This does not address the fact that if the sauce is not cooked or vinegar added, it will continue to ferment.  This topic is discussed and explain in the first post of This Thread and in more detail in the Last Post of that same thread. 
 
 

 
 
In the Sauce making 101 section I read,
"Acid ratios- based on several of the approved recipes in the links above, most have an average of 1 cup white vinegar to 10 cups of veggies. However, I’m not a food scientist or process authority. This is just a suggestion based on approved recipes. Different ingredients will effect the finished pH of the sauce. "
 
Is 1:10 ratio the minimum for food safety?  My vinegar is organic Thai pineapple vinegar.  
 
Thank you for any comments that can help me decide my next move!