oh boy, you caught me in a semantic error. i suppose my entire argument is invalid now.
"Monsanto May Seek to Revive 'Terminator' Technology "
- Thread starter TylerInNiagara
- Start date
midwestchilehead
eXtreme
I don't make strong statements often, but Monsanto is an evil corporation and must be eradicated for mankind to survive.
im loving my Monsanto tom rootstock plants. they are the most astonishingly vigorous plants ive ever grown hands down. and ive grown mustard greens.
monsanto owns DeRuiters, deruiters sells many greenhouse tom and pepper and cuc cultivars. none of them are gmo. however they are extensively and exhaustively breed with other plants to produce the most vigorous disease resistant and productive plants possible... hence the cost at around 50 cents a seed!
monsanto owns DeRuiters, deruiters sells many greenhouse tom and pepper and cuc cultivars. none of them are gmo. however they are extensively and exhaustively breed with other plants to produce the most vigorous disease resistant and productive plants possible... hence the cost at around 50 cents a seed!
We are capable of producing enough food without resorting to GMO's/pesticides. The problem is we have gotten away from sustainable agriculture. The current way crops are planted is the reason why we are depending on those GMO's. Look at the nutrient contents of a field that has grown corn or wheat for the last 20 years, let alone the last 5 years. The soil is almost dead. All the beneficial microbes/fungi are missing. The only thing that keeps those crops thriving are the chemical fertilizers that are dumped on them throughout the season. Leaving the field fallow for a year or two when they rotate the fields doesn't even come close to getting the soil back in balance.
A family of 4 can live almost entirely on one acre of plant-able land. 3/4 of an acre dedicated to growing and 1/4 for meat/protein production (chickens for meat/eggs, rabbits for meat, bees, etc). With the right planting pests almost become a non-issue (companion planting, beneficial insects). Diseases can still be an issue, but you don't just plant one crop, so if you lose potatoes to blight you still have plenty of other crops to get you through the year.
And don't say no harm can come from consuming a pesticide (not your exact words but that is the point you are making unless I am misunderstanding you). There is not a single one that says "safe for human consumption" on the bottle or packaging. It is poison. Sprayed the way it is over a large area it is less concentrated and therefor toxic, but it is still poison.
Look for: Green Gold - Documentary by John D. Liu
can you point me to any study that supports your claim? organic farming methods are terribly inefficient compared to modern agriculture.
i dont understand... are you advocating a return to like... medieval sustenance farming as a realistic solution to feeding the entire planet? idk about you but i dont have the time to chase some asshole chickens around the yard.
there are actually a number of pesticides that are literally safe for consumption. neem and bt are a good example of these. they are literally all but wholly non toxic to humans. coffee is less toxic.
i dont understand... are you advocating a return to like... medieval sustenance farming as a realistic solution to feeding the entire planet? idk about you but i dont have the time to chase some asshole chickens around the yard.
there are actually a number of pesticides that are literally safe for consumption. neem and bt are a good example of these. they are literally all but wholly non toxic to humans. coffee is less toxic.
http://www.supremegr...-benefits-.html
http://www.supremegr...fertilizer.html
http://www.supremegr...er-program.html
Potash
Kelp
Mycorrhizae
Compost Tea
Worm Juice and castings
Epsom Salt Spray
humic material
humic Acid
Fish Tank Water
OK, not just a semantic error, but rather maybe a lumping of a company's terrible choices in with some not bad ones....
Sure they do provide plenty of hybrid plants that grow quite nicely, but they also do the artificial genetic manipulation of plants that is not thoroughly tested over long periods of time as far as long term effects on the human race when consumed directly, or even indirectly through consumption of livestock fed with said gmo crops...
Too many unknowns to put our lives, and future food supply at potential risk.
I am not a gambling man, and this is one gamble that seriously sucks....
You should try chasing a chicken around the yard at least once. We have chickens, and it can be quite amusing, at least to the other family members. We feed them our vegetable scraps, and excess garden stuff....even leaves from broccoli plants etc...and they give us lots of high protein eggs in return.
so you are saying with beneficial fungi/kelp/aquarium water... we can feed 6 or w/e billion people?
i dont know the numbers but im guessing the world consumes 10s of millions of tons of nitrogen fertilizer. you are saying this kelp and aquarium water or w.e is goint to supplement this entirely? at the same or lower cost? on the same amount of farm land?
hate to be a nit picky asshole, but you linked me basically pr marketing flyers and youtube videos of novel organic methods that granted are interesting... but at the same time wholly unsuited for large scale agriculture.
i dont know the numbers but im guessing the world consumes 10s of millions of tons of nitrogen fertilizer. you are saying this kelp and aquarium water or w.e is goint to supplement this entirely? at the same or lower cost? on the same amount of farm land?
hate to be a nit picky asshole, but you linked me basically pr marketing flyers and youtube videos of novel organic methods that granted are interesting... but at the same time wholly unsuited for large scale agriculture.
"Yield data show that tomato production is 600,000 pounds per acre in the greenhouse, versus 60,000 pounds per acre in the field; or 60 pounds per plant in the greenhouse versus 6 pounds per plant in the field."
http://www.deltatsol...tureofFood.html
"Using the vertical space in your greenhouse with benches or hanging rods, doubles or triples the growing area."
http://www.grow4it.c...containers.html
"Mosaic estimates that potash reserves are over 100 years and it is now well into a phased, multi-year capacity expansion of its Saskatchewan mining operations."
http://www.icis.com/.../financial.html
"commercially viable kelp is. After all, it is the fastest growing plant on this earth and contains nutrition found no where else on land. Growing at 2 ft per day, there is no reason why humans shouldn’t be utilizing kelp’s benefits. Humans can live on seaweed thanks to a multitude of funding sources, more than half a century in research, a variety of NASA studies, and space missions that speak for themselves for how beneficial it can be. Brown kelp works wonders on plants and blue-green algae, called Spirulina, is known as a superfood for humans being chalked full of proteins, vitamins, and minerals."
http://www.supremegr...and-development
How much food is lost due to drought? Mycorrhizae helps increase the amount of roots reducing drought impact if you add drip irrigation you can reduce evaporation.
How To Add Mycorrhizae And Soil Microbes To A Garden - And Does It Really Make A Better Vegetable?
How much produce is thrown out or composted because it has brown or black spots because the plant did not get enough calcium or NPK's ? again Mycorrhizae will help reduce this.
As a side note, I help raise my 2 stepkids, but have no children of my own. So I have already done my part by simple population control.
Feed the world by having each generation shrink in numbers just a little, and eventually we can easily feed the world without crazy crap like gmo corn
Feed the world by having each generation shrink in numbers just a little, and eventually we can easily feed the world without crazy crap like gmo corn
To an extent, yes. You can only go so big from a farm standpoint before you have to start using harmful farming practices to work the land. The three main problems we run into are pesticides, fertilizers, and soil erosion (though this is in part a direct result from the other two). The best anti-soil erosion techniques include:
- No till farming
- Keyline design (fascinating subject)
- Growing wind breaks to hold the soil
- Getting organic plant matter back into fields
- Stop using chemical fertilizers (which contain salt)
- Protecting soil from water runoff
Chemical fertilizers are not good for the soil or the ground water, no way around it.
Pesticides (herbicides and insecticides) are hit or miss. Some are naturally occurring in some form (BT) but most of them are chemicals and rarely just hit their target. Over 98% of sprayed insecticides and 95% of herbicides reach a destination other than their target species, including nontarget species, air, water, bottom sediments, and food. * Pesticides are also directly responsible for the major loss of pollinators (colony collapse disorder for one). The USDA estimates $200 million in loss in the United States alone from the loss of pollination and pollinators. It is also estimated that pesticides have been responsible for a loss of 1/5th of the honeybee colonies in the US. That isn't just about honey, that has a huge impact on agriculture in general.
This is one of the areas I am passionate about. I don't have any concrete proof but I believe that the increase in diseases and cancers in this nation are a direct result of the chemicals we ingest and are exposed to. If it causes cancer in animals maybe we shouldn't be so quick to spray it on something we would eat.
Some references.
*Miller GT (2004), Sustaining the Earth, 6th edition. Thompson Learning, Inc. Pacific Grove, California. Chapter 9, Pages 211-216.
http://www.keyline.com.au/
http://www.sardc.net/imercsa/Programs/CEP/Pubs/CEPFS/CEPFS01.htm
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/
http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/health/human.htm
Edited to correct the EPA reference I had in there.
Thanks Tyler, I hadn't seen that one.
so you acknowledge organic farming methods are not productive enough to feed the planet? "big" farms are the farms that are making soy and corn cheaper then it has ever been allowing more people to afford more food then ever in human history.
PLEASE show me how modern agriculture has destroyed African farms. this is ludicrous.
those darn chemicals eh. you know strictly speaking water is a chemical? fertilizers are bad for the soil in what respect? clearly they are a miricale for plants and intensive agriculture. they are bad for what? the soil microorganisms? last i checked im eating the plants not the soil microbes. btw "salts" are terribly common im sorry. salts are entirely natural. epsom "salt" is a salt go figure. salt is just an ionicly bonded pair of ions. metal and non metal.
keylining is not suitable for large scale agriculture. please stop talking about nich methods more suited for 1/8 acres of garden someone has in their back yard. earthworks of that magnitude cost far to much time and labor. the most productive farm lands in america are by and large flat, very flat, and not suitable for this.
im not aware of any current issues with wind and water errosion. to the best of my knowlage modern tillage and watering solutions have largely eliminated dust bowl type problems like you speak of.
its true that intensive agriculture will deplete the land of natural minerals, however these can be replaced and supplemented with cheap and economical fertilizers. ammonium injection... phosphates ... calcium take a long ass time to accumulate its easier to supplement them.
its true the microbes and crap is ruined by tilling up and turning over soil. i would however submit to you that the benifits are astonishingly fortuitous . whats the world population going to be in like 50 years? 8 billion? organic methods will not feed the world without cutting down every damn acre of forest on the planet. you would need 100's of millions of tons of organic shit(literally) to replace SUSTAINABLE nitrogen sources like ammonia. (plz see haber process)
heres some random doc i found from cornell... easily the best college level agricultural programs in the country. i freely admit to not reading more than a few paragraphs of it.
http://psep.cce.corn...d-ag-grw85.aspx
there are a number of problems surrownding modern agriculture no doubt, but imo the solution lies in better land management not by returning to some ludicrous methods of farming that are over 100 years old. i have no doubt large farms effect the environment, however i would think these can be managed and brought under control with new technolagy and techniques.
Reduce the amount of fertilizer needed with Mycorrhizae, Reduce lost crop to drought with Mycorrhizae, Reduce the amount of water used with drip irrigation (You can still have fertilizer) grow in a greenhouse 365 days a year utilizing vertical space and get up to 7 years from your plant vs 1 year in the field. The reduced need for pesticides, water, fertilizer,less land (Taxes), lost plants and buying new seeds every year results in cost savings. Grow and sell it locally and you reduce shipping costs.
greenhouses dude, they are way cost prohibitive. where they DO make sense is in areas that are way cold to much of the year. canada has an amazing amazing amazing greenhouse industry. they make amazing marketable somewhat cheap tomatoes during the coldest months of the year. those greenhouses however cost millions of dollars per acre. they are not a solution for crops like soy and corn, food staples to say the least.
i agree better irrigation is always a good investment i use netafim drippers and sprayers and i would not give them up for anything. large scale farms use somewhat inefficient methods like those giant circular creeping sprinkler systems howver these are not fertigation systems, they are simply pumping well water. fertilizers are applied to the soil directly.
i personally am a fan of fertigation chemigation techniques. i enjoy perusing this because its an excellent exercise in practical engineering! the rewards i reap are basically 0 labor and excellent control of fertilizers. i am able to run tap water or fertilized water when ever i want. my system can even detect rainfall and delay the system automatically. i dont take advantage of that however, i handle that manually. i dont have much faith in the sensors i have for detecting rain.
at some point i want to get a tipping bucket rain sensor for real quantitative rainfall measurements.
i suspect fertigation could be extented to larger scale commercial operations growing vegetables and other row crops... however its probably not suitable for the large scale grows of stuff like soy and corn that is basically grown 10's of thousands of acres at a time.
i agree better irrigation is always a good investment i use netafim drippers and sprayers and i would not give them up for anything. large scale farms use somewhat inefficient methods like those giant circular creeping sprinkler systems howver these are not fertigation systems, they are simply pumping well water. fertilizers are applied to the soil directly.
i personally am a fan of fertigation chemigation techniques. i enjoy perusing this because its an excellent exercise in practical engineering! the rewards i reap are basically 0 labor and excellent control of fertilizers. i am able to run tap water or fertilized water when ever i want. my system can even detect rainfall and delay the system automatically. i dont take advantage of that however, i handle that manually. i dont have much faith in the sensors i have for detecting rain.
at some point i want to get a tipping bucket rain sensor for real quantitative rainfall measurements.
i suspect fertigation could be extented to larger scale commercial operations growing vegetables and other row crops... however its probably not suitable for the large scale grows of stuff like soy and corn that is basically grown 10's of thousands of acres at a time.
There are current problems with wind and water erosion almost everywhere. Here in Minneapolis the Mississippi and Minnesota rivers are both contaminated from the runoff of agricultural land. Any place that is plowed up and does not have crops growing is contributing to soil/water erosion. Without growing plants there the soil and nutrients get washed away. Plants hold the soil down and allow water to soak in.
The benefits of plowing and chemically fertilizing do not outweigh the environmental impact those practices have. We are poisoning and killing the gulf of Mexico (not to mention all the other bodies of water). The dead zone where the Mississippi enters into the gulf is now the size of the state of Conneticut and growing. We either have to eliminate use of chemical fertilizers or figure out a way to use them without poisoning our water.
Below are areas that struggle with or are at risk for erosion. It is not just isolated incidents but widespread problem.
The benefits of plowing and chemically fertilizing do not outweigh the environmental impact those practices have. We are poisoning and killing the gulf of Mexico (not to mention all the other bodies of water). The dead zone where the Mississippi enters into the gulf is now the size of the state of Conneticut and growing. We either have to eliminate use of chemical fertilizers or figure out a way to use them without poisoning our water.
Below are areas that struggle with or are at risk for erosion. It is not just isolated incidents but widespread problem.
Monsanto is truly an evil company doing evil things.