hybrid Most "stable" Super Hot hydrids

E

Englander

Hi Guy's

It seems that pretty much all "superhots" are "hybrids" and boy there are so many the list growing day after day ! :think: 😵‍💫🤯

I believe by F8 they are something like 98% stable ?

However you hear guys talking about F3 or F4 varieties which they have found to be very "stable" 🤯 which adds to the confusion for newbies in the chilli pepper world.

Here in the UK I've seen lot's of blogs, posts, etc of people finding extreme variation in the Carolina Reaper often tiny pod's and weird shapes ! I tried to grow it one year zero germination ! But id also imagine when a variety is the " In thing" there's alot of dodgy seeds kicking about simply due to supply and demand and unscrupulous seller's.............

I'd be interested in people's first hand experience of modern superho stability..........🤔

Stephen
 
Englander said:
Hi Guy's

It seems that pretty much all "superhots" are "hybrids" and boy there are so many the list growing day after day ! :think: 😵‍💫🤯

I believe by F8 they are something like 98% stable ?

However you hear guys talking about F3 or F4 varieties which they have found to be very "stable" 🤯 which adds to the confusion for newbies in the chilli pepper world.

Here in the UK I've seen lot's of blogs, posts, etc of people finding extreme variation in the Carolina Reaper often tiny pod's and weird shapes ! I tried to grow it one year zero germination ! But id also imagine when a variety is the " In thing" there's alot of dodgy seeds kicking about simply due to supply and demand and unscrupulous seller's.............

I'd be interested in people's first hand experience of modern superho stability..........🤔

Stephen
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I had problems getting reaper to germinate and grow. I do have a few going but they are doing ok. Maybe 30% germinate and get going (healthy). I have others like 7 pots and scorpions that are doing way better and the exact same environment.

I thought by now all the reaper seeds would be stable and way beyond f8. Maybe they are inherently plagued. I do agree with you, so I try to get more popular hybrids that are said to be stable. With success.
 
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Englander said:
But id also imagine when a variety is the " In thing" there's alot of dodgy seeds kicking about simply due to supply and demand and unscrupulous seller's.............
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Bullseye🎯
 
The only hybrid superhot is the Bhut Jolokia.

All the objectionable variants (miscreants? :rofl:) are crosses. They are crosses between various cultivars (cultivated variety).

A hybrid is either between two species (interspecific hybrid), subspecies (intraspecific hybrid) or even genera (bigeneric hybrid).

The Scorpion along with 7 Pots and Scotch Bonnets and Habaneros etc are considered land races.
 
RobStar said:
The only hybrid superhot is the Bhut Jolokia.

All the objectionable variants (miscreants? :rofl:) are crosses. They are crosses between various cultivars (cultivated variety).

A hybrid is either between two species (interspecific hybrid), subspecies (intraspecific hybrid) or even genera (bigeneric hybrid).

The Scorpion along with 7 Pots and Scotch Bonnets and Habaneros etc are considered land races.
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Interesting. At what point could you use the seeds and expect great results the next gen?
So if it’s f1 reaper it would be the first cross with ghost and habanero? a stable hybrid would be f8 or better? It you self pollinate does it add to the lineage?

I guess sellers are selling whatever they have and they are not sure where it is on the lineage.
 
By great results do you mean (a) an expected/desired outcome (at least some offspring display the desired phenotype) or (b) a 98% desired phenotype?

If (a) then in the F1. If you have fixed trait parents then some, if not all, of the offspring should exhibit the desired outcome.

If (b) and you have the resources of a dedicated plant breeder you will first line breed your parents to the point that they will produce near exact phenotypic replicas of themselves through seed.
You then cross or hybridise them with another fixed trait plant. These offspring will then undergo the same line breeding and selection as the parents did. If you have a heated greenhouse and good lighting you can achieve F8 in four years - two generations a year.

The beauty of Capsicum is that they self pollinate. This means you can take a desirable F1 and self it and continue with the offspring - select and self, select and self and so on until your desired phenotype comes nearly 100% true from seed.

Oh and for those who don't know: the Reaper is a knock-off version of the Primo. The Primo was bred by Troy Primeaux, an actual horticulturist at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette. It is a cross between a Naga Morich and a red 7 Pot. Mr Fuckeritt (see what I did there ;)) did the same but didn't stabilise it, hence the reapercussions (pun intended) from the chili community.

If someone is selling a cross and stating the generation ie it is unstable, then it is the buyer's problem if they don't get the expected outcome.
 
RobStar said:
The beauty of Capsicum is that they self pollinate. This means you can take a desirable F1 and self it and continue with the offspring - select and self, select and self and so on until your desired phenotype comes nearly 100% true from seed.
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Isn't that inbreeding? Can't be good for the genetics if you ask me... 🤔
 
RobStar said:
If someone is selling a cross and stating the generation ie it is unstable, then it is the buyer's problem if they don't get the expected outcome.
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Here in Italy the Pepperfriends association aims to preserve the stability of the seeds through isolation every year. Semillas la Palma in Spain is also known for maintaining stability. But unfortunately it's full of sellers that don't indicate the generation or whether they're open pollinated.
What are the reliable American seed banks?
MarcV said:
Isn't that inbreeding? Can't be good for the genetics if you ask me... 🤔
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I'm interested in this point of view. I read that every few years NuMex cultivars are regenerated from landraces because they tend to get sick and lose flavor. This leads me to wonder, given some cultivars I have grown in the past that have not turned out to be totally true to type, whether there is actually a possibility that they have lost some characteristics after years of self-pollination. Can backcrossing be a solution?
 
Here's an example: I grow the Bolivian Rainbow every year. I don't select seeds from any one plant. I just take a few dried berries and keep them until I need more plants or the parents become moribund. Those plants have selfed. I did not breed for various criteria. That plant has looked like that since people found it in Amazonia.
Now let's look at the NuMex cultivars. They were bred for multiple criteria - days to fruit, fruit size, colour, flesh thickness, flavour, "spiciness", cold tolerance, heat tolerance etc etc etc. By selecting for certain traits you can actually begin to render other traits that were codominant, recessive. As a hypothetical example (I do not know and understand the Capsicum genome) by constantly selecting for high yields and fruit size you may be selecting against heat and flavour.
A real life example: a seed merchant I supply licenced a range of open pollinated Ornithogalum hybrids to an Israeli breeder. The Israelis selected for early flowering and discarded the rest. They ended up with dwarf plants and no longer the 50cm tall spikes that the cutflower industry wanted.
I've noticed similar with all these crosses that are about looks - they taste crap - super bitter with no depth of flavour.
 
That makes sense. Not enough generations/crosses = higher variability; pure landraces = minor variability, stable traits.
This would also potentially explain why not all super-hot taste like crap: some landraces are good; and also why many ornamentals are just bitter.
I selected C. annuum for a few years based on shape and color, and at some point started selecting for flavor, as I had lost interest in the bitter/tasteless ones (most of them).

I had problems with a Bishop's crown at 0 SHU, which I expected at least a little spicy; but actually, even the shapes of the peppers were not homogeneous; both symptoms attributable to some stabilization problem.

Most of the seeds I use have isolated origins; I take this opportunity (since I saw that you and Marc are not Americans) to clarify my question, and expand it to everyone: who knows any reliable isolated seed sellers who ship to Europe? I can't find all the seeds on my wishlist from my two trusted suppliers, I would like to expand the range. Possibly, if there isn't a dedicated thread, I can create a new one.

Thank you
 
Correct re. landraces - they have been selected for heat and flavour over generations. What is really interesting is that chinense landraces from the Caribbean were taken to West Africa by freed slaves and those have now morphed from the typical Scotch Bonnet phenotype into very different looking and tasting (including heat) chilis. They have now become landraces in their own right.

I strongly recommend The Hippy Seed Company. All the other seed suppliers I frequented in the past have closed down - even recently (midwestchileheads :(). I don't have experience with Semillas as my seeds were confiscated by Customs.

If you're looking for weird stuff with dickhead names well that's outside of my ambit. I grow for culinary purposes.
 
Thanks for the tip!

I also grow mainly for culinary purposes, I'm a fan of C. baccatum 😍 and peppers under 100k SHU (I think the spiciness should be balanced with the other notes of the dish, not overpower them). But I also add some wilds and crossbreeds (of mine) for pure fun.
 
HellfireFarm said:
I would find that surprising - I'm pretty sure they haven't been around long enough to be considered heirlooms even if they are stable enough.
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Well, that is the main point, how long have they been with us?

According to folks in the Caribbean, they have been around since they can remember. The supposedly record breaking ones are the new ones, but the scorpion pepper is nothing new or recent, dating back decades. Anyway, this is what I heard, and cannot prove it. Maybe you can try to plant open pollinated scorpions and see if they remain true to type. I have limited experience, so maybe only 4 years worth, but they do come true to type for me so far. Therefore, relevant to this thread IMO.

Edit: the same has been said in my Spanish speaking circles about the habanero and the jalapeno. Just for reference. The difference is the scorpions is from the islands, while the others are from the continent (Mexico end a bit further south).

Edit 2: sorry for adding more, but maybe it's interesting for you. If you speak Spanish, they call them "semillas de antiguedad" or "semillas de reliquia". So, maybe some is lost in translation, so that the time or stabilization may not hold the same in terms of strictness.
 
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No idea how long something has to be around to be considered heirloom. I do know that it at least has to be stable.

As for the habanero, I know that one is old enough! I think 8,000 years is long enough...

Looks like the scoprion was developed in the 1990's. By any definition I'm able to find, that means it can't be considered an heirloom (requirements vary from 100+ years old, 50+ years, before 1945, or before 1951).
 
The heirloom moniker is a can of worms. Today's intensely-bred varieties can be considered heirlooms in a 100 years time. I have checked through Baker's Creek's catalogue (a few year's ago - unfortunately not worth me ordering from them as some delightful individual at South African postal or Customs "Service" deems my highly anticipated delivery as a gift from me to show my appreation for their deft fingerwork). Sorry for the digression. They have various items that were produced by and released by commercial seed merchants in the early 1900's.
I agree with the concept though of maintaining old genetics. Whatever we call them.
Oh before I forget. The Scorpion lineage was not created in the 90's. It's been around in some shape or form in Trinidad for generations. It's just not something that people bothered about too much - not exactly your everyday snacking chili. Besides, the flavour isn't anything to celebrate
 
RobStar said:
The heirloom moniker is a can of worms. Today's intensely-bred varieties can be considered heirlooms in a 100 years time. I have checked through Baker's Creek's catalogue (a few year's ago - unfortunately not worth me ordering from them as some delightful individual at South African postal or Customs "Service" deems my highly anticipated delivery as a gift from me to show my appreation for their deft fingerwork). Sorry for the digression. They have various items that were produced by and released by commercial seed merchants in the early 1900's.
I agree with the concept though of maintaining old genetics. Whatever we call them.
Oh before I forget. The Scorpion lineage was not created in the 90's. It's been around in some shape or form in Trinidad for generations. It's just not something that people bothered about too much - not exactly your everyday snacking chili. Besides, the flavour isn't anything to celebrate
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I would just want to be able to grab seeds grow a plant then take the seeds from the new plant self pollinated and have the same next year.
I don’t like that some sellers will show you a picture of a pod, then say you get what you get. Because it was an f2 or f3. It’s not about the money but about expectations and time.

There are some sellers that do a great job of letting you know up front. if I want to grow what is considered stable (f8, landrace, etc) at least send me the seeds that are from the stable plant. $10 is not a lot but 100 days to find out it’s not what you wanted.
 
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