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My Hydro Habanero's: DWC with DIY LED's
- Thread starter Ictus
- Start date
Did a res change Sunday morning, up to 1.65 EC, and pH 5.9.
Look like a bit of an overall improvement, but I do have some concerns. Plants are reaching sideways but not up much.
Looks like more growth up top is surviving, but it has a weird, stunted fuzzy edge look to it. Also a slight dark/tan/grey coloration around the base and tip of some of the new leaves.
And the 'dark streaking' I previously observed only on Flower stems, I now see on at least one leaf stem:
Dark streaking on a flower stem. This blossom looks a tad deformed doesn't it?
The peppers themselves also show a bit of this dark streaking.
The dark streaks have no visible texture, so it appears to be under the skin. The tan scars however are raised. I'm assuming those are mostly old insect wounds from wherever these plants originally came from?
The old area that had the dying leaves is still putting up new dead tips and another dead blossom from the same area. Crappy pic, but it basically looks like a "roesette" of dead tips, which most nute-deficiency helping websites DO suggest as a Zinc deficiency. But I'm doubtful that's the case here.
There's also what appears to be two failed-leaves that somehow got fused together (center of pic) and look like an upside down ballsac...odd.
I'm actually wondering if the dark streaks could be some form of Verticillium wilt or another disease?
I've read that dark spots on the stems are only normally around where branches occur.
I know this is ALOT of variables going on to be able to effectively diagnose: changing nutes, transplant stress, custom lighting, yadda yada But thanks to anybody who can take a crack at my rubiks cube!
Look like a bit of an overall improvement, but I do have some concerns. Plants are reaching sideways but not up much.
Looks like more growth up top is surviving, but it has a weird, stunted fuzzy edge look to it. Also a slight dark/tan/grey coloration around the base and tip of some of the new leaves.
And the 'dark streaking' I previously observed only on Flower stems, I now see on at least one leaf stem:
Dark streaking on a flower stem. This blossom looks a tad deformed doesn't it?
The peppers themselves also show a bit of this dark streaking.
The dark streaks have no visible texture, so it appears to be under the skin. The tan scars however are raised. I'm assuming those are mostly old insect wounds from wherever these plants originally came from?
The old area that had the dying leaves is still putting up new dead tips and another dead blossom from the same area. Crappy pic, but it basically looks like a "roesette" of dead tips, which most nute-deficiency helping websites DO suggest as a Zinc deficiency. But I'm doubtful that's the case here.
There's also what appears to be two failed-leaves that somehow got fused together (center of pic) and look like an upside down ballsac...odd.
I'm actually wondering if the dark streaks could be some form of Verticillium wilt or another disease?
I've read that dark spots on the stems are only normally around where branches occur.
I know this is ALOT of variables going on to be able to effectively diagnose: changing nutes, transplant stress, custom lighting, yadda yada
But thanks to anybody who can take a crack at my rubiks cube!I'm still wondering if perhaps I am blasting them with too much intense narrow blue light from my Cool White LEDs, the non-dimmed XP-Gs. The fact that it's only the topmost new growth makes me think lighting. Could be wrong. I'd rather it be that instead of some kind of disease issue.
I will not be adjusting the light brightness at all for now. It's still around ~1100 par (halfsun). I'm going to see if my slightly increased EC and altered Lucas ratio will help. Then in a few days I will be getting my order of K2S04 and I can see if that helps. If after targeting nutrient profiles more carefully the new leaf issue persists, I will try lowing the brightness of the lighting again.
If this current growth pattern continues... I'm going to have some awesome Habanero Hedges
I will not be adjusting the light brightness at all for now. It's still around ~1100 par (halfsun). I'm going to see if my slightly increased EC and altered Lucas ratio will help. Then in a few days I will be getting my order of K2S04 and I can see if that helps. If after targeting nutrient profiles more carefully the new leaf issue persists, I will try lowing the brightness of the lighting again.
If this current growth pattern continues... I'm going to have some awesome Habanero Hedges
My guess on the dark streaks is nothing wrong you are just fretting about nothing. I have peppers in full sun that do it kinda like a suntan. If you look around on this site of others growing under high intensity lighting that have close ups of the plants similar if not exactly the same blushing or tanning. The plants look really good compared to what they looked like when you first got them a short time ago all yellow and pot bound dropping their leaves.
Also if possible move them into natural light and not under your lighting to inspect and take a few pics because at least in the pictures it is influencing how they look and may be making things look different then they really are. Tricking at least the camera if not your eye in what we are seeing. Ever notice how it is tricky getting a camera to catch blue flowers how our eyes see them and they often look purple or pink instead of blue. Your blue leds may be doing the same in this case.
Thanks onefowl1.
I'm glad to hear the streaking is normal under intense light. I'm new to this, and I think my coral background has made my over sensitive to physical changes... since in that world if you don't catch a problem RIGHT away it can mean overnight disaster. But growth is also slower. Hydro plants seem so much more forgiving, and so much faster growing... its the total opposite in both ways
I like your suggestion to take some pics outside, the LEDs definitely make photos look odd since I can never match the Kelvin exactly. The roots are already so massive that taking and putting the Lid back on my res after a change requires using my hands to guide all the roots into the container... but the roots dont seem to mind the manhandling. I'll try and get pics later this evening.
I'm glad to hear the streaking is normal under intense light. I'm new to this, and I think my coral background has made my over sensitive to physical changes... since in that world if you don't catch a problem RIGHT away it can mean overnight disaster. But growth is also slower. Hydro plants seem so much more forgiving, and so much faster growing... its the total opposite in both ways
I like your suggestion to take some pics outside, the LEDs definitely make photos look odd since I can never match the Kelvin exactly. The roots are already so massive that taking and putting the Lid back on my res after a change requires using my hands to guide all the roots into the container... but the roots dont seem to mind the manhandling. I'll try and get pics later this evening.
How big is your res? you should bang out like a 25gallon tote imo, you certainly seem to have enough light.how many total watts is that btw?
Running full strength it's around 80w.
Right now it's dimmed about 2/3 or so according to PAR. I haven't checked with the kill-a-watt at this current brightness, but it should be using around 50-60 watts currently. Light is plenty bright, the only problem is it only lights a small footprint of about 1' by 2' with decent intensity.
I'm using a tote that can probably store 7.5gal, but I'm filling it with 4 gallons for a 2.5" air gap.
Yea a bigger res would be nice. I am using a smallish cabinet space right now (so the lights heat up the space and I can control temp, and bounce light etc), but I probably could fit at least a double size res. I'd just have to re hang the lights a bit more center of the cabinet but thats easy.
My next setup will most likely be aeroponic since I will be selling my reef tank soon and one of the pumps it uses is the Aquatech 8800... the perfect aero misting pump Nice thing about drain-to-waste areo is that fresh water is always hitting them. Currently thinking of 5" vinyl post for my lettuce/kale crops, and 12" pvc for peppers. I think 5" would be way too small for them.
The well water at the house I'm moving into next month has a ppm of 40, so 0.08 EC. I'll have a much better idea what's in the water, not much reason to even think about RO there. I also asked for some trace metal analysis as part of the testing but hvae yet to get the results back on those.
Right now it's dimmed about 2/3 or so according to PAR. I haven't checked with the kill-a-watt at this current brightness, but it should be using around 50-60 watts currently. Light is plenty bright, the only problem is it only lights a small footprint of about 1' by 2' with decent intensity.
I'm using a tote that can probably store 7.5gal, but I'm filling it with 4 gallons for a 2.5" air gap.
Yea a bigger res would be nice. I am using a smallish cabinet space right now (so the lights heat up the space and I can control temp, and bounce light etc), but I probably could fit at least a double size res. I'd just have to re hang the lights a bit more center of the cabinet but thats easy.
My next setup will most likely be aeroponic since I will be selling my reef tank soon and one of the pumps it uses is the Aquatech 8800... the perfect aero misting pump
Nice thing about drain-to-waste areo is that fresh water is always hitting them. Currently thinking of 5" vinyl post for my lettuce/kale crops, and 12" pvc for peppers. I think 5" would be way too small for them.The well water at the house I'm moving into next month has a ppm of 40, so 0.08 EC. I'll have a much better idea what's in the water, not much reason to even think about RO there. I also asked for some trace metal analysis as part of the testing but hvae yet to get the results back on those.
Ah, i thought your light was bigger than that. bummer you dont have any more space, i bet that light could grow pretty large plants compared to crummy ufo's or w/e. ever considered one of those 2x2 tents?
i actually built a hp aero system using an 8800 last winter. when it cools down ill be firing it up along with my 600w hps.
heres my thread.
http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/18488-my-hp-aero-grow/
slaped together and tossed in the back room... it did pretty well, i got the root growth i wanted, i just didnt have anywhere close to enough room for the roots.
i actually built a hp aero system using an 8800 last winter. when it cools down ill be firing it up along with my 600w hps.
heres my thread.
http://www.thehotpepper.com/topic/18488-my-hp-aero-grow/
slaped together and tossed in the back room... it did pretty well, i got the root growth i wanted, i just didnt have anywhere close to enough room for the roots.
Nice! I'll be checking out your thread now.
Yea, my LED fixture is pretty small. The heatsink they are on is about 12" long x 6" wide so that really limits the lit area, no matter how bright. My two plants will appear merged in about a week, heh.
The heatsink and most of the pieces were leftover scraps I just decided to try something with. I had all the blue and cool white LEDs, so I basically just ordered an equal number of Warm LEDs to mess with.
Yea, UFO lights don't put out much light at all. This youtube video compares PAR of a few commercial fixtures and the UFO just look sad. LED fixtures compared
The winner of that video costs 1k, uses 120w and pushes about 60-70% the light my fixture pushes. Amazing how much you lose just by getting average binned LEDs instead of high quality bins. This is why people feel LEDs are so overhyped: the fixture makers make ABSURD claims like 100w=400w, when they aren't even using high quality LEDs or optics.
If I made a setup truly from scratch, I'd do a much bigger fixture. I'd skip the heatsink and just use aluminum L channel.
I'd also probably skip all the Blue/Red nonsense and just get one really high quality warm bin in the highest brightness possible and lots of em.
For my larger grow I'm still trying to decide between about a 320w LED setup, or possibly use 250w HPS and then 175w of Cool-White LEDs to supplement the hps. Supplementing is more attractive since it will cut the cost in half, and there's really not that much efficiency difference between HPS and LED. The main advantage of LEDs is how easily the light can be focused and not wasted out to the sides. But in a dense garden that sideways "wasted light" from the HPS could actually prove very important so you have to be careful not to fool yourself. Either way, I'll definitely by using a light mover.
Yea, my LED fixture is pretty small. The heatsink they are on is about 12" long x 6" wide so that really limits the lit area, no matter how bright. My two plants will appear merged in about a week, heh.
The heatsink and most of the pieces were leftover scraps I just decided to try something with. I had all the blue and cool white LEDs, so I basically just ordered an equal number of Warm LEDs to mess with.
Yea, UFO lights don't put out much light at all. This youtube video compares PAR of a few commercial fixtures and the UFO just look sad. LED fixtures compared
The winner of that video costs 1k, uses 120w and pushes about 60-70% the light my fixture pushes. Amazing how much you lose just by getting average binned LEDs instead of high quality bins. This is why people feel LEDs are so overhyped: the fixture makers make ABSURD claims like 100w=400w, when they aren't even using high quality LEDs or optics.
If I made a setup truly from scratch, I'd do a much bigger fixture. I'd skip the heatsink and just use aluminum L channel.
I'd also probably skip all the Blue/Red nonsense and just get one really high quality warm bin in the highest brightness possible and lots of em.
For my larger grow I'm still trying to decide between about a 320w LED setup, or possibly use 250w HPS and then 175w of Cool-White LEDs to supplement the hps. Supplementing is more attractive since it will cut the cost in half, and there's really not that much efficiency difference between HPS and LED. The main advantage of LEDs is how easily the light can be focused and not wasted out to the sides. But in a dense garden that sideways "wasted light" from the HPS could actually prove very important so you have to be careful not to fool yourself. Either way, I'll definitely by using a light mover.
I am familiar with the aquarium world as I managed a pet store and worked for a fish store for over 10 yrs total. You had mentioned this before but it went right by me. I totally understand where you are coming from as I made a few mistakes in my time in the field resulting in very quick kill offs that were avoidable if I would have been more diligent.
Have you thought about just doing the hps and maybe led supplement lighting for your larger set up for mostly grown fruiting peppers and using your smaller one you have now to start and grow them to that point then moving them over?
Have you thought about just doing the hps and maybe led supplement lighting for your larger set up for mostly grown fruiting peppers and using your smaller one you have now to start and grow them to that point then moving them over?
Yup, a multi stage growing system is definitely in the plans.
Thse LEDs are by no means the only lighting I have. Just to name a few bits I still have:
3 x 250 mh ballast, electronic
1x lumen arc mini mogul reflector... I used for mh but hps will prolly work in it too
1x icecap 660 ballast for t5 or t12, plus tons of old used bulbs and end caps
A 4 bulb, 4 foot ATI power module t5 fixture that needs new fans and a good cleaning, but this will be the perfect seed starter light IMO
I also have an aquamedic 150w HQI pendant/ballast but it's a worthless POS that often takes 10 tries to fire to bulb... I won't even sell it that's how shitty it is. not even sure why I haven't trashed it TBH
So I'll probably use the ATI as a seed starter, and maybe two more long bulbs if I need more space. I will find some use for my current light, even if it's just for a single plant off to the side. The small footprint makes it less ideal for a large seedling tray I think, but anything is possible still. I've even thought about making a pretty enclosure, adding tight optics, and doing a pepper plant inside the house as part of the decor...the light would be mounted by the ceiling and enclosure would block the light from being seen except by the plant. A little splash of sunlight somewhere inside maybe? Just random thoughts
The lumen arc will probably be used for hps, all I need is bulb and ballast which are cheap.
Mogul base is the same for mh and hps right? Never used hps before.
Thse LEDs are by no means the only lighting I have. Just to name a few bits I still have:
3 x 250 mh ballast, electronic
1x lumen arc mini mogul reflector... I used for mh but hps will prolly work in it too
1x icecap 660 ballast for t5 or t12, plus tons of old used bulbs and end caps
A 4 bulb, 4 foot ATI power module t5 fixture that needs new fans and a good cleaning, but this will be the perfect seed starter light IMO
I also have an aquamedic 150w HQI pendant/ballast but it's a worthless POS that often takes 10 tries to fire to bulb... I won't even sell it that's how shitty it is. not even sure why I haven't trashed it TBH
So I'll probably use the ATI as a seed starter, and maybe two more long bulbs if I need more space. I will find some use for my current light, even if it's just for a single plant off to the side. The small footprint makes it less ideal for a large seedling tray I think, but anything is possible still. I've even thought about making a pretty enclosure, adding tight optics, and doing a pepper plant inside the house as part of the decor...the light would be mounted by the ceiling and enclosure would block the light from being seen except by the plant. A little splash of sunlight somewhere inside maybe? Just random thoughts
The lumen arc will probably be used for hps, all I need is bulb and ballast which are cheap.
Mogul base is the same for mh and hps right? Never used hps before.
Well I didn't have time to take the plants outside for pics tonight, but I did take two pics with a flash. Had to set the shutter very fast, aperature very high to keep them from over exposing, so it looks a bit flat. But you can see the color of the plants more evenly.
Also gives you a better idea of the limited space and size of the lights.
And a flash pic closeup. Notice one of the peppers is turning orange. It seems rather small to be turning orange.
Keeping in mind the last 2 pics were with a flash, this next one isn't. It really sells home how intense yet directional LED lighting is. A solid beam of downward light with lots of shadows.
If you look between the hydroton, almost all the roots there are the single cell hair type. Sweet
A few days ago the roots in the air gap had some more fuzz too, but I increased the air pump intensity a bit, and the added wetness tends to kill off the hairs pretty fast. They still look good. Not perfectly white, but I don't think you can expect them to be with GH nutes + compost tea.
There are a few dead roots here and there still from when I stupidly dosed H2O2 last week, but overall a great recovery. The compost tea does a fine job breaking down dead roots and protecting healthy ones.
Also gives you a better idea of the limited space and size of the lights.
And a flash pic closeup. Notice one of the peppers is turning orange. It seems rather small to be turning orange.
Keeping in mind the last 2 pics were with a flash, this next one isn't. It really sells home how intense yet directional LED lighting is. A solid beam of downward light with lots of shadows.
If you look between the hydroton, almost all the roots there are the single cell hair type. Sweet
A few days ago the roots in the air gap had some more fuzz too, but I increased the air pump intensity a bit, and the added wetness tends to kill off the hairs pretty fast. They still look good. Not perfectly white, but I don't think you can expect them to be with GH nutes + compost tea.
There are a few dead roots here and there still from when I stupidly dosed H2O2 last week, but overall a great recovery. The compost tea does a fine job breaking down dead roots and protecting healthy ones.
I referred to how I damaged my roots with H2O2, but I never showed it or really explained it.
First, this is a repost of an old pic I posted on the 7th. Notice how thick and ropey some of the roots are. They're even nicer and whiter than they are now:
Well, the same day after I took the above photo, I did a res change and dosed with H2O2. In another thread, someone kinda gave me a scare on dosing beneficial bacteria (aka compost tea), and in typical me fashion, I over reacted instead of going with what I had already researched and decided upon. Never a good idea!
This is a pic of the same roots about 3 days later!!
The nice fluffy roots got turned into these little limp brown shreds. Not a hair in sight. 0 growth in 3 days (wtf?!) Even worse every single root that was submerged in water had a black tip. Also notice the large mass of brown goo on the roots on the left.
Well it's been a little over a week since I dumped the H2O2 and did another res change with the compost tea again. The roots fully recovered in about 2 days, and now they're about 4x bigger, although not quite as thick and fluffy as they used to be (see my last post). I think they will get there if I dial in my air pump just right. It has a knob that controls the airflow.
First, this is a repost of an old pic I posted on the 7th. Notice how thick and ropey some of the roots are. They're even nicer and whiter than they are now:
Well, the same day after I took the above photo, I did a res change and dosed with H2O2. In another thread, someone kinda gave me a scare on dosing beneficial bacteria (aka compost tea), and in typical me fashion, I over reacted instead of going with what I had already researched and decided upon. Never a good idea!
This is a pic of the same roots about 3 days later!!
The nice fluffy roots got turned into these little limp brown shreds. Not a hair in sight. 0 growth in 3 days (wtf?!) Even worse every single root that was submerged in water had a black tip. Also notice the large mass of brown goo on the roots on the left.
Well it's been a little over a week since I dumped the H2O2 and did another res change with the compost tea again. The roots fully recovered in about 2 days, and now they're about 4x bigger, although not quite as thick and fluffy as they used to be (see my last post). I think they will get there if I dial in my air pump just right. It has a knob that controls the airflow.
Well from the pics using the flash the leaves look really good and healthy.Also the pic from farther back really shows how much they have grown from the 4 inch potbound plants you started with a few weeks ago.
With all the chatter on here recently about cloning/cuttings in hydro the best of our mother plants when i said "use the smaller unit to start/grow them up" then move them over to your future bigger grow area well thats what I was thinking. As far as starting seed for going out into the garden I think for the short period most of us grow them before the move out a good set of florescent lights is all thats needed.
HPS bulbs are mostly for bloom and fruiting from all I have read and what little I have used them for so far in the past. MH are better for growth and florescents can be for either depending on the color temp. I am looking at a couple light setups to get and from what I am learning many of the digital ballasts can run either MH or HPS bulbs, they sense and adjust to the bulbs hooked up to them. In the greenhouse I am building I am going with several 60 watt HPS fixtures on both timers and light sensors. They will be used only for supplemental lighting during the fall/winter months to extend the season.
With all the chatter on here recently about cloning/cuttings in hydro the best of our mother plants when i said "use the smaller unit to start/grow them up" then move them over to your future bigger grow area well thats what I was thinking. As far as starting seed for going out into the garden I think for the short period most of us grow them before the move out a good set of florescent lights is all thats needed.
HPS bulbs are mostly for bloom and fruiting from all I have read and what little I have used them for so far in the past. MH are better for growth and florescents can be for either depending on the color temp. I am looking at a couple light setups to get and from what I am learning many of the digital ballasts can run either MH or HPS bulbs, they sense and adjust to the bulbs hooked up to them. In the greenhouse I am building I am going with several 60 watt HPS fixtures on both timers and light sensors. They will be used only for supplemental lighting during the fall/winter months to extend the season.
Well from what I've read, HPS is more effienct than MH in terms of lumens per watt, but is deficient in blue spectrum. The blue light is what keeps plants from stretching up to the light. So maybe some blue or cool white supplement to an HPS is the way to go. Some HPS bulbs though include a tad of blue, but I have no idea how effective those are. Some sites say HPS is ~140 lumens per watt but I think that's overly ideal. Wikipedia also says MH is 65-115 lm/w, but in practical use, it's usually the lower or mid range (unless you are talkin the 600 or 1000w bulbs), they get closer.
My LED light has lots of blue and my plants haven't stretched up to the light at all. they are only stretching sideways so more leaves can get the light. them being transplants does make the results harder to understand of course but I DO think they'd be stretching already if my lighting was off.
Of course you can get an MH bulb of any color, some of the 6500k Iwaki bulbs are pretty bright, but they're not as efficient as I'd like. I wish my digital ballast would run HPS, but the label only says MH. It's made by PFO and they don't even make ballasts anymore so it will be hard to find out for sure. Maybe you are right that it could work.
I like your plan to use the light sensors to control the lights.
My LED light has lots of blue and my plants haven't stretched up to the light at all. they are only stretching sideways so more leaves can get the light. them being transplants does make the results harder to understand of course but I DO think they'd be stretching already if my lighting was off.
Of course you can get an MH bulb of any color, some of the 6500k Iwaki bulbs are pretty bright, but they're not as efficient as I'd like. I wish my digital ballast would run HPS, but the label only says MH. It's made by PFO and they don't even make ballasts anymore so it will be hard to find out for sure. Maybe you are right that it could work.
I like your plan to use the light sensors to control the lights.
Nice looking setup. I don't know if the nutrient levels are causing the problems. Peppers can grow nicely with what you're feeding. Have you checked the leaves with a magnifying glass and ruled out mites? Have you sprayed anything? How is the humidity?
I haven't sprayed anything yet but I'm buying some Neem oil just incase.
Haven't seen any mites. At one point I *thought* I did, but the flecks were too small to tell. So I cliped that leaf and took photos of it every 30 mins or so for a few hours. None of the flecks moved, so I'm pretty sure they were just soil bits from the messy transplant process. My cameras macro lens is better than my jewlers loupe... no magnifying glass but sounds like a good idea if I can get a high enough magnification.
I have however seen a whitefly or two, but not lately. Previously I was seeing a few of the whitefly "nymphs" on the bottom of the leaves (they look like tiny horseshoe crabs actually). I'd find one every few days and kill it, but some already looked dead (dry and flaky already). I haven't seen anything like this in over a week now, so I'm thinking I got em all. But there's also way too many leaves to check them all anymore, so they may still be some.
Haven't seen any mites. At one point I *thought* I did, but the flecks were too small to tell. So I cliped that leaf and took photos of it every 30 mins or so for a few hours. None of the flecks moved, so I'm pretty sure they were just soil bits from the messy transplant process. My cameras macro lens is better than my jewlers loupe... no magnifying glass but sounds like a good idea if I can get a high enough magnification.
I have however seen a whitefly or two, but not lately. Previously I was seeing a few of the whitefly "nymphs" on the bottom of the leaves (they look like tiny horseshoe crabs actually). I'd find one every few days and kill it, but some already looked dead (dry and flaky already). I haven't seen anything like this in over a week now, so I'm thinking I got em all. But there's also way too many leaves to check them all anymore, so they may still be some.
How about the humidity then? Sometimes the exhaust works too well and dries things out.