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chinense Need help IDing these C.Chinense!

I believe the habanero originated long before 1848, even the Datil has been in Florida longer than that. I don't see it as a Denominación de Origen for 3 Mexican states, all of Mexico is affected but only the 3 states have the right conditions to grow them to proper standards. They are trying to help a threatened industry since these days every C. chinense is called a habanero and many farmer's are tempted by more productive hybrids/crosses and more northern environments/conditions. Eventually there would be no more real heirloom or landrace habs, just hab-like peppers.
They are trying to do the same protection with Chimayo peppers in Mexico and Scotch Bonnets in Jamaica. Its already been done with Espelette chile in France. Maybe Tobascos should be protected too but it would be very problematic since there are original Mexican tobascos, Louisiana tobascos, and today tabasco's sauce chiles are commercially grown in Central America and Colombia and shipped in mash form to Louisiana.
 
I believe the habanero originated long before 1848, even the Datil has been in Florida longer than that. I don't see it as a Denominación de Origen for 3 Mexican states, all of Mexico is affected but only the 3 states have the right conditions to grow them to proper standards. They are trying to help a threatened industry since these days every C. chinense is called a habanero and many farmer's are tempted by more productive hybrids/crosses and more northern environments/conditions. Eventually there would be no more real heirloom or landrace habs, just hab-like peppers.
They are trying to do the same protection with Chimayo peppers in Mexico and Scotch Bonnets in Jamaica. Its already been done with Espelette chile in France. Maybe Tobascos should be protected too but it would be very problematic since there are original Mexican tobascos, Louisiana tobascos, and today tabasco's sauce chiles are commercially grown in Central America and Colombia and shipped in mash form to Louisiana.

Wonder what year the habanero actually and supposedly came from Cuba?

The Datil history is nebulous, at best. But yes, the Spanish were in both places, moving humans around at about the same time.

Sounds like a very similar problem (the Tabasco), thus my suggestion of similarities. And it seems to me the DOE is only for CP, YC and QR. It's just legally enforced in Mexico. It's just like Espellette, yes?

Either way, thanks for the enlightenment POTAWIE. I'll lay off you for a bit from now on.
 
I find these in the grocery store every so often. They don't taste as hot as a regular habanero. I think they are a crossbreed.
 
And it seems to me the DOE is only for CP, YC and QR. It's just legally enforced in Mexico. It's just like Espellette, yes?

It seems most protected varieties have a "regional qualifier"

"
Editor's Note: German chile expert Harald Zoschke comments on the Designation of Origin for the Habanero in Mexico.

hz.jpg
First, I'm not a legal expert nor a lawyer, so this is just personal opinion without any legal relevance. It is strange that a generic variety name like "Habanero" was granted protection without a regional qualifier. Different story with the protected names over here. For example, there's a protected Piquillo pepper, but that one is named "Piquillo de Lodosa", after the town in the Navarra community where it is grown and protected for origin. But plain "Piquillo" can be grown anywhere and sold under this name. Another one is "Peperone di Senise," a protected pepper from the area around Senise in the southern Italian region of Basilicata. Even "Piment d'Espelette" has its origin in the name, and I heard of Calabrian efforts to protect "Peperoncini di Calabria." These three cases mean nothing but "Peppers from [region name here]." And "Champagne" or "Roquefort" also indicate their origin in the name, which as far as I understand is a vital qualifier to receive protection. You can name any bratwurst just that, but
"Nürnberger Bratwurst" has is protected and has to be made in the City of Nuremberg, Bavaria.
How much a plain "Habanero" would have to be respected here, I don't know. As pointed out, over here, only something like "Yucatán Habanero" would have received legal origin protection. Among other EU countries, Habaneros are grown in Holland for trade within the EU. I'd expect the Dutch growers to oppose. And what about Tropical Red Habanero from the Caribbean and the like? Also, speaking of the origin name, I think I read in one of your books that "Habanero" means "From Havana," so grant the name rights to Cuba, if at all."
http://www.fiery-foo...article/57/2961
 
Wow, this topic has really sparked some insightful conversations! I really dig the direction that this thread is going in, and it really puts it in perspective how much we Chiliheads love what we do, and that is enhance our knowledge of all things chili! Great info, POTAWIE, and thanks Eephus Man for keeping this thing going, too. It's always cool to learn something new about the topography of the chili domain in the world scheme of things, and also cool to see how many people worldwide dig on the chili peppers!
 
Okay, a little update on this variety! I found a C.Chinense called the Zanahoria Triangulo online, and it looks very much like the pods I got.
 
Even if they did come from Havana as some theories suggest, that was a very long time ago. The habanero we know originated in the Yucatan peninsula and surrounding areas

Cuban cuisine (as I know it) is nearly completely devoid of heat, and the Cubans I know are all very capsaicin-intolerant. I find it hard to believe that anyone would think that habaneros actually come from Havana... more likely it was a joke. A Yucatán dude saying "Yeah, they eat these things in Havana" and having a good laugh.
 
I wouldn't say cubans are completely capsaicinoid intolerant. Being a Floridian, we have our share of Cubans (former and current) living here. Many convenience stores sell fresh HOT pressed cuban sandwiches, and especially as you move further south you find more and more cubans... Never the less, Jalapeno is not an uncommon accoutrement in their cuisine. Can't say as I've ever seen them eat a hab though.
 
Just saw this topic and all though I have the out most respect for Dave DeWitt and his knowledge, I'm going to take my chances and argue the opposite :)

To me it seems very unlikely that the intrepertation of "DECLARATORIA GENERAL DE PROTECCION DE LA DENOMINACION DE ORIGEN "CHILE HABANERO DE LA PENINSULA DE YUCATAN" would apply to all habanero types. There is indeed a regional identifyer - the declaration protects " Yucatan Habanero Chile" - the fresh produce and products cultivated and produced in the regions specified in the declaration, it does not protect "the Habenero Chile".

A good argument for the fact that is not the "habanero" which is protected is this passage: "Adicionalmente, el chile habanero de Yucatán mantiene su firmeza después de cortarlo de la planta y es por esto que presenta una mayor duración comparado con otros chiles habaneros". Which with my limited language skills would translate to something like: "The Yucatan Habanero Chile contains the firmness after being picked from the plant and keeps its freshness longer compaired to other habanero peppers"

So I would say that the declaration recognizes by law that there the habanero chiles from this area have certain qualities derived specifically from for instance the geografical enviroment (natural and human) which makes the "Yucutan habanero" a brand worth protecting and marketing.

Making the comparison as others above with the European Union " The Protected designation of origin (or protected geografical designation)" which is given to around 13 agricultural capsicum products, for instance:

O Piménton de la Vera - smoked paprika made from the cultivars aranda, Jariza og Jeromin and Bola, grown, prepared, processed and produced in La Vera, Campo Arañuelo, Valle del Ambroz og Valle del Alagón, Spain. There are specific production demands - for instance it has to be smoked over oak. Historically the cultivars was grown, selected and "developed" over time by the monks in the Yueste Monestary, who as the - thus debateable - story goes got the seeds as the first in Spain after Columbus came back from this first journey and paid tribute / made a pilgrimige to the Roal monestary of Santa Maria de Guadalupes and gave capsicum seeds to the monks.


O Piment d'Espelette - fresh, dried on strings (ristras) or powder made from the cultivar Gorria again prepared, processed and produced in a certain area namely Pyrénées-Atlantiques: Larressore og Souraïde og Aïnhoa, Cambo-les-Bains, Espelette, Halsou, Itxassou, Jatxou, Saint-Pée-sur-Nivelle og Ustaritz (by the Spanish boarder in Southern France).

O Pemento de Herbón - fresh capsicums with no or little heat - the cultivar Padron - grown in the Calician Coast area Spain specificly Padron, Dodro, Rois, Pontecesures and Valga. Named Herbon since historically this cultivar was grown, selected and "developed" by the monks in the Herbón Monestary

O Peperone di Pontecorvo - Fresh capsicums of the cultivar Cornetto di Pontecorvo from Frosinone, Italy, BOB 13/11/2010

O Szegedi fűszerpaprika-Å‘rlemény/Szegedi paprika - Hungarian paprika fron the Szeged area made of the cultivars Bibo, Bolero, Delibab, Fesztival, Folkor, Karminvores and about 14 other specified cultivars.

It is important to note that none of the above are protected cultivars - one can grow Padron, Gorria and Cornette di Pontecorvo openly and name them excatly that. We can even aquire seeds from Espelette, but if we grow them out side the named regions they will be what they "realy" are; the cultivar Gorria - not "Piment d' Espelette".

/Jadia :)
*Edited with the correct link
 
But the Yucatan habanero is the real, original habanero so I don't know what they are comparing it with. Others are hab crosses, hab mutations, hab-nots, or hab wanna-bees.
 
But the Yucatan habanero is the real, original habanero so I don't know what they are comparing it with. Others are hab crosses, hab mutations, hab-nots, or hab wanna-bees.

The real original habanero .. there's a topic worth days of dicussion :)

As a chili head I agree, that the "Orange Habanero", which I believe you are refering too as a cultivar with a quite clear description of the phenotype, have been selected and bred though out generations after generation in the area of Yucatan. As a chili head I am also annoied that when "habaneros" is sold around the world it could be almost every C. chinense larger than a cumari and that what ever cultivars are given names which include the term habanero.

But habanero is not only a specific orange cultivar - it is also a "type" recognized and used by for instance most seeds og gene banks - which is used to define a c. chinense with a certain pod type - roundish with .. what s the word "folded?", often lantern shaped - here by qualifying both brown, red, yellow habanero as "habanero peppers", not to mention for instance red savina, Numex Suave, TigerPaw-NR, the Tame Mild Habanero, PI 594139 etc as a habanero type.

To get back to the declation: .
For arguments sake and lets define the "orange habanero" which are typical for the Yucutan area as a certain cultivar - lets even state it is the "original ,habanero". But growing it out side Yucatan does not make it less of a orange habanero. And nor does the declation grant protection to to the term "habanero". The declaration grants protection to the term "habanero from Yucatan" which the Mexican law now recognizes as having certain qualities due to mostly the natural enviroment in the area. So all selling "habaneros from Yucatan" if they do not live up to the terms of the declation is breaking it.

It is no different than the Padron Pepper being a "original cultivar that have derived from selective breeding by monks and locals in the Herbon area which have specific qualities due to the geografical natural and human factors", but since the protection can not be given to the cultivar the term "Pemento de Herbón" was protected.

The declation is also not a protection of a certain phenotype - making it illigal to name, marked or sell other capsicums as habanero types or even habanero peppers. Good or bad we live with the fact that habanero today is wider than the "original orange habanero, which stems from Yucatan".

/Jadia :)
 
In Mexico they don't really use very hot peppers like we think, you will likely only find Habaneros in the Yucatan area(3 states) where they originated, and habaneros are the only C. chinenses found in Mexico although I still debate whether a red habanero should still be called a habanero.
The reason they are protecting it is so that the real habanero genetics don't get lost in the sea of poor taxonamy and cross-breeding

The same thing is happening with the Jamaican Scotch Bonnet
"Unfortunately, Jamaica is unable to meet the demand for this highly sought after commodity. Other Caribbean islands have tried to cash in on this demand by exporting the peppers, but importers in the USA who know the product say the quality is inferior to the true Jamaican Scotch bonnet.
The Jamaican government is currently working with agronomists at the Scientific Research Council and the Ministry of Agriculture to save the Scotch pepper which is under threat from the use of inferior seeds, the use of the name Jamaican Scotch bonnet to describe peppers that are not real Scotch bonnet, inferior quality products and inability to meet demand. In addition, the fumigation that is required for entry into the United States results in quicker spoilage.
The Ministry of Agriculture, Rural Agricultural Development Association and the Scientific Research Council are all working to ensure that the Scotch bonnet pepper industry survives. One of the strategies being developed is the sale and distribution of top-quality Jamaican Scotch bonnet seeds to farmers.
http://fiery-foods.com/chiles-around-the-world/76-caribbean/88-the-scotch-bonnet-peppers-of-jamaica?showall=1
 
Us New Mexican's think the same thing about Texas... On average Texas "spicey" is very mild. Here and there I have found spicey but...

Same here. Honestly, there is little in the way of *truly* spicy food anywhere in North America. Some pockets here and there. Certainly there are a few joints here that have true spicy food (that you can still taste!). A good mix, too. Chinese, Thai, Mexican, Indian, fusion.

But my experiences in Mexico have been similar. I got 'hold of some pretty hot stuff in the Yucatan once (Puerto Morelos) and in Zacatecas, Zacatecas. Not sure where the perception that Mexican food is hot would come from. Canada? ;)

All about the cook and their preference, it seems. And then, sometimes, like here, it depends on how hot the chiles are that go in the queso/salso/pico/etc. And that changes from batch to batch. 'Tis the beauty of frequenting a nice hole-in-the-wall eatery.
 
In Mexico they don't really use very hot peppers like we think, you will likely only find Habaneros in the Yucatan area(3 states) where they originated, and habaneros are the only C. chinenses found in Mexico although I still debate whether a red habanero should still be called a habanero.
The reason they are protecting it is so that the real habanero genetics don't get lost in the sea of poor taxonamy and cross-breeding

The same thing is happening with the Jamaican Scotch Bonnet
"Unfortunately, Jamaica is unable to meet the demand for this highly sought after commodity. Other Caribbean islands have tried to cash in on this demand by exporting the peppers, but importers in the USA who know the product say the quality is inferior to the true Jamaican Scotch bonnet.
The Jamaican government is currently working with agronomists at the Scientific Research Council and the Ministry of Agriculture to save the Scotch pepper which is under threat from the use of inferior seeds, the use of the name Jamaican Scotch bonnet to describe peppers that are not real Scotch bonnet, inferior quality products and inability to meet demand. In addition, the fumigation that is required for entry into the United States results in quicker spoilage.
The Ministry of Agriculture, Rural Agricultural Development Association and the Scientific Research Council are all working to ensure that the Scotch bonnet pepper industry survives. One of the strategies being developed is the sale and distribution of top-quality Jamaican Scotch bonnet seeds to farmers.
http://fiery-foods.c...maica?showall=1

I do not disagree that The Yucutan Peninsula is the largerst producer of Habaneros in Mexico, but there is a fair share of cultivation of habaneros on the West Coast of Mexico as well. This picture is from the latest travel log I have from the West coast from a 25 ha habenero and Serrano field:

There is also no doubt that The Yucutan Peninsula have a well know regional cuisine with a tradition of using Habaneros, but if I do not remember incorrectly I read a piece from The Mexican Agriculture Department stating around 33 tons of the habanero cultivated on the Yucutan Peninsular is sold nationaly in Mexico compared to around 10 tons exported ( whether this is pr. week or month I do not remember). And then there is the habaneros grown out and sold nationaly out side the Peninsula of Yucutan. Also despite the traditional local cuisines is dominated by the mild chiles habaneros will be found in restaurants and as fresh pods in markets out side Yucatan.

I was aware that there is talk about the Jamaican Scoth Bonnet and protected designation of origin. In Mexico it is also suggested to apply for protection with a regional/geografical qualifier of for instance poblano, jalapeno, piquen, serrano, ancho, guajillio, chipotle, passilla, amachito.

But I still disagree with the interpretion that this will mean that any of the above mentioned can not be sold under the cultivar name with out being grown in specific geografical areas.

even if they are granted the proction it will not be the cultivar that is protected – it will be the the geografical information linked to cultivar that will be protected = Jamaican Scoth Bonnet, where as Scoth Bonnet can be grown, sold and markedet as Scoth Bonnets.

My take on the issue is:

It lies in the laws - national and international – that regulates the use of Geografical Indications (GI), which consist of protected designation of Origin (PDO), protected Geografical Indications (PGI) and Appellation of Origins (AO) among others, which positively regulates and registers National Indications with precise product description and certification of compliance. A few is Carrots from Lammefjorden (just to have Denmark represented :)), and in Mexico ”Vanilla from Papantla” or ”Mango Ataulfo del Soconusco Chiapas” and in other Contries several types of olive, lemons and potatoes with specific geografical indicators *

GI involves recognizing a collective, exclusive right to the use in trade of a geografical name or symbol on an item or product, which creates the means to differenciate their product on the market (See i.e. Larson, 2007 for a extensive explation of GI). This has become a hugh commercial advantage where the geografical identifyer and the ”connotations of a special quality or history” competes with the attention of the consumer among with low prices, availabilty etc.

Over all the most important is that it is not a variety/cultivar that is protected in the GI. Variety/cultivar protection is internationaly regulated in TRIPs and/or in the UPOV act (Hefner, 2002 is good overview) - UPOV which has a very limited number of member – but includes Mexico. Nationaly in Mexico the protection of variety/cultivars are regulated in ”Ley Federal de Variedades Vegetales”. With out getting lost in more details, both TRIPs, UPOV and national Mexican law states that a variety/cultivar have to be new to get any form of protection under these rules or international agreements.

Nor the GI regarding "Habaneros of the Peninsula Yucutan" and nor "ley Federal de variedades Vegetales" will be able to regulate or protect the "original habanero" from being cross bred or other types of habeneros to be sold under the name of habanero. Peculiar enough MAYAN EK, MAYEN IXCHEL, MAYAN KAUIL, MAYAPAN is just some of the cultivars that was registreret as new Habanero Cultivars under the "Ley Federal de Variedades Vegatales" in Mexico in 2011 (Source:Catálogo nacional de Variedades Vegetales and Plant variaety Gazette)

Last but not least it looks as if a "false marketing" logic is applied in the argument that habaneros from out side Yucantan is not a habenero - and that the orange "original" habeno (perhaps the red as well) is the only habanero cultivars. This can not be deducted from the "protected designation of origin" as it does no lie within the schemes of the legislation to define true cultivars. But on the contrary it can be deducted that the "habanero of yucutan" clearly defines them selfes being different than other habaneros - in accordance with the common (mis-) conception that Habaneros are a wide variaty of c. chinense - thus making habaneros are generic term.


/Jadia ;)

* Common Law Contries such as Canada (minus Quebec) and USA have a different legal practice when it comes to GI, which I have very little knowlegde of – But I believe Canada have a preventive protection practice (no registration), but mainly uses ”passing off”. And USA is a hole other ball game, which connects to trade marks (and general preventive protection practices).

** in the proces of editing with links..
 
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