Open Pollination - Lets get a grip on terms

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

If you interact in the heirloom seed niche outside of peppers, then you have probably read the term 'open pollination'.  People tend to use the term to mean what it means, that the plant is capable of being pollinated by another plant.  Typically you see that on a pack of seeds.  It does not mean that the seeds were created outside of isolation efforts. Ah but in the pepper genre, folk tend to use the term 'open pollinated' to mean the seeds were created outside of isolation.  o we wind up with two very similar terms to mean something different.
 
Open Pollinated - These seeds were grown outside of isolation efforts.  Higher chance of being cross pollinated.

Open Pollinating - The plants these seeds grow can be pollinated by other plants.

I wonder if there are not better terms to use.  Reason I started thinking about this was read a blog post where someone said that she thinks open pollination was better because the seeds cost more.  She was talking about pepper seeds and the way we use the term, that just seemed backwards.

So better terms?
 
I think the terms are fair, because they give the buyer/grower an idea of what type of plant and seeds he's using.  In the realm of trading seeds, open-pollinated is fair to use, because they are implying that there might be some other random genetic material in there.  Sellers have to guarantee isolation if they want to be in any way reputable, so they might say that the plant is "open-pollinating" to let the grower know that there can be crosses for future generations.  I don't have a problem with the terminology.
 
As an aside, I'm not afraid to save dicey seeds and see what comes up the next year.  I grew about 14 tomato plants from seed I had saved last year.  I have a few varieties around the property, and the seed I saved was actually from some amazing "celebrity" tomatoes I picked up at a nursery.  They are a hybrid variety from some unknown parentage, but I loved the product, so I took a chance on the seed.  This year, I haven't been disappointed in the least.  The second generation is producing all types of tomatoes that look like the parent product as well as some fruits that have varied in ribbing, shoulder type, and size.  Doesn't matter!  I have no complaints with the yield, taste or resiliency of these plants.  I'm not in the commercial business, so this type of stuff doesn't bother me as much, obviously.
 
Hmm, I see your point. AndyW seems to have a pretty good answer. I would probably suggest "uncontrolled pollination".
 
I personally always assumed "open pollination" to mean the second definition, or at least a broader definition. "Open pollination" to me always meant not selectively pollinated (to make a hybrid) and not specifically self-pollinated. Anything "open pollinated" to me has a chance of being a surprise hybrid, but the chances clearly are much different between growing industrially/commercially for fruit and seed sales (probably tens of acres of a single cultivar minimum) and personal/enthusiast (maybe 10 different plants in 10 sq ft.). I'm not saying an enthusiast can't be commercial of course. If I purchase seeds that are described to grow into a specific plant, I do (within reason) expect those to grow true. If I have any seeds (heirloom or whatever), that are described as open pollinated, I might lower that expectation somewhat - depending on source. Isn't there something like, "You can only rely on yourself."? I'm clearly in a similar boat to HabaneroBeets though so I can understand how others feel different about this.
 
 
 
 
TL;DR - uncontrolled pollination, but I'm not too big on semantics anyway.
 
Open pollinated= Grown outside of isolation. Seeds possibly product of cross pollination. May not grow peppers true to named variety.
Isolated= grown in conditions where self pollination is exclusive and certain.
 
Pretty much sums it up 
 
Not quite sure anyone has the resources to truly grow in isolation. Doesn't that require a clean room? Pollen is everywhere.
 
Voodoo 6 said:
Not quite sure anyone has the resources to truly grow in isolation. Doesn't that require a clean room? Pollen is everywhere.
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Some crops like corn are pollinated by the wind.  Peppers and other plants that tend to self pollinate are often cross pollinated by insects rather than the wind.  I am not sure why.  Anyway, although nothing is perfect, most efforts to grow peppers in isolation involve various forms of bridal cloth to keep the insects out.  I am not sure why but the wind does not seem to be all that much of a factor even though I am sure pollen could get threw bridal cloth.  Still, absolutely nothing is perfect.
 
Here is a video with Jim Duffy that shows how he does it.  This is where I got the idea for frames, but I do it a bit differently. For what ever reason, I am stuck on square things and two by fours.  I think it is a lack of imagination.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lokNvgxM5s0
 
well peppers are both self pollinating and open pollinating. 
it seems kinda dumb to even put that on the label.
Not sure why a seed packet needs to teach a person about the whole genus of capsicum properties.
 
but the seed packet does need to indicate whether seeds were isolated or not
if open pollinated is confusing, not isolated could work.
but a marketer would tell you not to use negative language to describe your product...
 
so open pollinated it is lol
 
jedisushi06 said:
Jim Duffy doesn't even grow out the seeds he sells for plant starts lmao
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Do you mean the plants he sells don't come from his own seeds?  Seems more expensive to produce that way.  Is there a marketing / business reason I am missing cause this sound really odd.
 
 
The whole verbage of plants is changing to sell seeds. Take Heirloom for instance, today if a cross is stable it's heirloom but could also be a hybrid from years ago. Seeds companies will put both a the label. Open Pollinated means it's not a hybrid and will grow true IF it's not cross pollinated.
 

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Ragun, yep and that is where the verbage gets confusing.  If you get some seeds from a train or trade, chances are the term 'open pollinated' means they were not grown in isolation.  That tomato you listed could be grown in isolation, heirloom, open pollinated and a hybrid all at once thanks to the way we are using these terms.
 
That package labeling is wrong. If a hybrid is stabilized then it's a heirloom or Open Pollinated(OP). The seed companies keep hybrid on the packs so people keep buying them because we all know a hybrid won't grow true in the next generation(F-2) so you can't save seeds, But a Heirloom will grow true so it can't be both.
 
The confusing part is using the name Heirloom for a recent hybrid that's been stabilized instead of OP. I think of Heirloom as an old type tomato/pepper not a recent cross that's stabilized. Maybe it's just me being too old school. I say grow'em and make sure they're true and isolate if you're gonna keep seeds.
 
 
 
Used to be an heirloom was what you got from a friend, seed library, or other source not commercial.  Then they became popular.  Now the word means very little other than reasonably stable and you can save the seeds.  But the word hybrid is getting to be about the same with meaning change.  It used to mean a useful F1 like a seedless watermelon.  Now people use the term to mean anything nature did not create on her own.  It drives me nuts.  It is like words and terms no longer have meanings..
 
AJ Drew said:
Used to be an heirloom was what you got from a friend, seed library, or other source not commercial.  Then they became popular. 
 
 
It is like words and terms no longer have meanings..
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I'm on your side, but unfortunately I think that's just the way language works. I have to stop myself from caring. Words only mean what the common human thinks it means. Language evolution is pretty interesting... at least that's what my sister says; she has an English degree so I'll take her word for it!  :rofl:
 
 
Probably a good example is "like". It used to mean "such as", "enjoy/prefer", "similar".
 
Now it's 90% used for a generalized quotation: "said"
 
Bugs the shit out of me, and I'm pretty young! The linguist's opinion? Get used to it. You can't stop it.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2015/01/25/linguists-are-like-get-used/ruUQoV0XUTLDjx72JojnBI/story.html
 
"An heirloom plant, heirloom variety, heritage fruit (Australia and New Zealand), or (especially in Ireland and the UK) heirloom vegetable is an old cultivar that is maintained by gardeners and farmers, particularly in isolated or ethnic minority communities of western countries."
 
I've never used the term differently, nor have I ever seen it used differently. 
 
Same with hybrid: "A hybrid, or crossbreed, is the result of combining the qualities of two organisms of different breeds, varieties, species or genera through sexual reproduction".
 
Though I agree the open pollination thing is a bit confusing.
 
b3rnd said:
"An heirloom plant, heirloom variety, heritage fruit (Australia and New Zealand), or (especially in Ireland and the UK) heirloom vegetable is an old cultivar that is maintained by gardeners and farmers, particularly in isolated or ethnic minority communities of western countries."
 
I've never used the term differently, nor have I ever seen it used differently. 
 
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Great definition.  Problem being now things like Mortgage Lifter tomato are sold by major seed companies because Heirloom is the hot word to sell seeds.  Not sure the story behind Mortgage Lifter Peppers, but evidently there is an heirloom Mortgage Lifter Pepper now.  Fairly sure it is a name game.

I think industry latches on to anything niche that they think they can sell to the masses.
 
 
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