organic Organic discussion

[Marturo]

Interesting thread.
I have grown Organic Heirloom Fruit & vegetables since 1976.

After many years it's been my experience, Simply answering a post/question with, you can try Pyrethrum spray for those Beetles,
or I have used Spinosad for all those hungry Caterpillars & it knocks them dead. An inexpensive solution to these damn bugs is
what we all want, as long as it works.

After all I'm just another grower trying to get my crops to market. It's true what they say about honey & vinegar I believe. LOL

 

[sicman]

Im not suggesting I want my food sprayed with chemicals but organic is a lie. Yall would be very suprised what ORGANIC can still spray. Its nothing more than a money grab. No one cares about your health the government lies and is a fraud. People shout organic but slurp down soda, eat chips and hang their junk out of a glory hole. Get everything they eat at whole foods but dont exercise. Its all a agenda to keep you busy.

 

[Marturo]

Im not suggesting I want my food sprayed with chemicals but organic is a lie. Yall would be very suprised what ORGANIC can still spray. Its nothing more than a money grab. No one cares about your health the government lies and is a fraud. People shout organic but slurp down soda, eat chips and hang their junk out of a glory hole. Get everything they eat at whole foods but dont exercise. Its all a agenda to keep you busy.

At almost 70 years old & having eaten Organic grown foods since my 20s I doing just fine.
When I chose to use Pyrethem instead of Malathion or Sluggo instead of some toxin that kills good life as well as bad bugs
that's my choice.

I just visiting I'm am not here to save anyone from themselves eat what you want it's your life.
I started using & understanding how growing could be done without deadly chemicals that last for decades killing everything.

I grew up overseas where the people who farmed had no Super Chemicals to help them save their food from destruction by bugs.
We started in Ohio where the cold weather kept many bugs in check, moving to Western NC bugs were more of a problem as the weather
was warmer.

I would be surprised if the products I have studied & used for Decades would qualify as a Fraud. However if you feel the example of people
eating trash food, I just do not get it. Many of those you describe as lazy & not eating right, well It will be a cold day in hell when they get up & grow their own food organic or otherwise.

I grow clean food because I can & I chose to grow my plants the way I want, not because it' coool to be organic.

 

[sicman]

Your making an assumption about me. I live on 18 acres raise cattle,chickens and have 2 gardens that run full year. My point is just because it says organic doesnt mean anything. My real point is most people run around shouting a bunch of garbage they have no idea about. You would be suprised if something that has been studied would qualify as a fraud. Guess your right, everything that is presented to us is correct. Buy those cage free eggs, you know the ones where chickens are still in cages.

 

[sicman]

By the way I eat healthy and care extremely about my health. Mental and physical.

 

[sicman]

my only point is just because someone tells you they did the job doesnt mean they are even on the jobsite yet. Pretty easy to put up your chemicals when its inspection time. The government only wants there money, not your well being.

 

[Marturo]

my only point is just because someone tells you they did the job doesnt mean they are even on the jobsite yet. Pretty easy to put up your chemicals when its inspection time. The government only wants there money, not your well being.

I'm sorry if you feel I attacked you, that was not my intention.
Let me do some 'splaining.

Once upon a time I saw only Organic, my way was the right way, & if you did not believe the way I did, well you get it.
As I got older I saw that just a kind word and a free tip on what I thought about growing & eating the Organic way of life was eagerly listened to by many more people, honey not vinegar I believe

Just a side note. My Dad lived to 96 years old & fought in Europe & the Pacific Ocean. He grew up at the old Sailors & Soldiers Home in Ohio & joined the US Army @ 18. He ate Pig everyday of his life but ate a Chemical free food diet growing up because DDT was not developed yet.
My point is just look at how many of the WWII generation because of their mostly pesticide use not being present lived longer. I read recently where our generation is not expected to live anywhere near to them. Remember our 1950 diets & red dye#2 & the many new Chemicals they put into our processed meals from there forward. Still today.

OK today with many miles on my feet, I do see all you are talking about, the cheating by Foe Farmers who cheat the consumer for more profits.
I also see the bright cherry faces of young organic farmers who would rather plow it all under than use chemicals. I support & buy local to support those young people with dreams of living with mother Nature rather than fighting her. I remember the feelings I was young once also.

Maybe we can just all buy local & get to know the people who are growing our food. Something I have doing for many years I'm getting older & now & that Maddox is getting pretty heavy LOL. Those young Organic Farmers know just where to get Organic Wine grapes to make their wine
I'm still in the game

 

[dragonsfire]

Agree Organic is a racket, overpriced licence fees etc. Allot of the "Organic" does not look healthy or even taste, roll of the dice. Market wise.
I remember my Mothers Organic garden produce were three times bigger and tastier then the store stuff, just from compost.

 

[Marturo]

just from compost.

Like mothers milk.

 

[Max Nihil]

Since organic is such a broad and non-specific term it's kind of meaningless without context.

To paraphrase Cygnet Committee; organic is just a word... as ambiguous as the word synthetic.

Salmonella is, it turns out, entirely organic, as are plenty of other unpleasant pathogenic bacteria and toxic fungi.
Byproducts of various animal industries like commercial fishing and livestock operations produce wastes that are processed and sold as organic fertilizers. Blood meal, bone meal, hoof & horn meal, fish meal and fish emulsion are all examples of such fertilizers. All of these fertilizers, as well as others like cottonseed meal and other industry byproducts; easily support the growth of toxic molds and harmful microbes and carry serious risks that synthetic fertilizers do not.

Organic fertilizer materials likewise breakdown and give rise to soluble fertilizer salts, like potassium nitrate, an ingredient in old gunpowder recipes prior to the invention of gun-cotton. The fertilizer salts from organic materials can become so concentrated that armies have, in the past, commandeered soil beneath barns to use to make gunpowder.

Chemically (and to the plants in particular) there is no (meaningful) difference between synthetic potassium nitrate and organic potassium nitrate. In fact organic fertilizers are prone to many of the same problems synthetic fertilizers are including run-off polluting freshwater with excess soluble fertilizer salts like phosphorus. In many cases the environmental damage associated with the production of organic foods and or fertilizers is no less severe or significant than that of synthetic fertilizers. An examination of the environmental effects or ethics of animal industries which produce organic fertilizer byproducts shows that the word organic cannot be considered to mean something actually healthy for the environment or for the individual.

However it is no secret that not all organic fertilizers and methods are equal and the quality of well grown organic produce is often vastly superior to the alternative. Such produce is of a high quality readily distinguished by the senses from alternatives. Those familiar with it seek it out and it becomes the standard by which other produce is judged. And certainly such produce is also not grown using ground up animal wastes or seed meals.

But a lot of food and fertilizer carrying the organic label isn't high quality and a lot of food that isn't labeled as organic is high quality.
As a word organic is nearly useless by itself (almost as misused and abused as the word shaman) many ignore it and look at the actual quality of the fruit.

 

[dragonsfire]

Their also hiding GMO products by growing them "Organically", and labeling the Bottles Organic Juice.

 

[Max Nihil]

Their also hiding GMO products by growing them "Organically", and labeling the Bottles Organic Juice.

While I am not opposed to GMO organisms in principal I do harbor a vehement antipathy for dishonesty and find such practices as mislabeling things to be abhorrent. I also note that GMO technology is still young and it is reasonable to expect both wonderful and terrible consequences to come from it in the future.

 

[Marturo]

Anything good to say about USDA Organic food?

 

[Pr0digal_son]

There are nearly 8 billion people on this planet.The non-GMO and organic lobbies are not going to feed them. Permaculture and aquaponics aren't either. The hatred for Monsanto -I am one of them-has stained the letters GMO. And your rank and file will just pile on and not do a second of research.

Learning to Love G.M.O.s (Published 2021)

Overblown fears have turned the public against genetically modified food. But the potential benefits have never been greater.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Max Nihil]

Anything good to say about USDA Organic food?

That label doesn't mean organic in any way shape or form.

It's a joke like the FDA, which literally releases drugs it knows will harm the public because it can make more money by allowing a drug and then fining the company for public harm than it can by merely preventing the drugs release.

Moreover the company that releases the drug likewise can make money this way, usually far more than the meager 1-2 billion they may have to pay for killing the public with a harmful drug.

FDA researchers (and others) have literally testified under oath that this is how the FDA works, not for protection or safety but for profit and no other thing. The FDA also allows foods in the US to contain chemicals that are illegal in every developed country except the USA, because they are proven to cause heart disease but heart disease medication in the USA is a gigantic medical industry and the companies that sell drugs that treat heart disease in the USA give the FDA billions. Profits before people is how this system works and because of this nothing from the USDA or the FDA can be regarded as having public interest in mind.

People forget that about a century ago it was legal to work children to death 20 hours a day 7 days a week in mines and that to have a 8 hour 5 day work week there were riots, bombings and deaths. Literally the US public had to fight, riot and bomb the government a century ago to save our children from horrific exploitation. We've come a long way and most of our slave caste today (working class) enjoys a better quality of life than royalty did 3000 years ago, but we still have a long way to go before those who lead us care about our own good more than their own pockets, which incidentally is the problem with all forms of political and religious ideologies and why they all fail historically: human corruption, dishonesty and greed, which we will never overcome, undermine the traits we perceive as virtuous like sympathy, empathy and conscientiousness. However all those same traits also exist in basically most other worms (organisms with a tube from one end to the other) let alone other vertebrates so it's best not to worry about trying to change human nature, but it is foolish to not be aware of it, people are both wonderful and monstrous, both collectively and individually and any discussion about the ethics of organic food would do well to keep this fact in mind.

There are nearly 8 billion people on this planet.The non-GMO and organic lobbies are not going to feed them. Permaculture and aquaponics aren't either. The hatred for Monsanto -I am one of them-has stained the letters GMO. And your rank and file will just pile on and not do a second of research.

Learning to Love G.M.O.s (Published 2021)

Overblown fears have turned the public against genetically modified food. But the potential benefits have never been greater.

www.nytimes.com

It is reasonable to expect both wonderful and terrible things from GMO organisms.
If we had a system that put people before profits the emphasis would be on wonderful.

 

[solid7]

There are nearly 8 billion people on this planet.The non-GMO and organic lobbies are not going to feed them.

Which is why we shouldn't be complaining about GMOs. Assuming for a second that GMOs aren't actually harmful, we are due for a population doubling in ~40 years time. That's a disaster for just about everything.

I advocate more GMO and corn based food products, along with continuing to add more sweeteners to everything that the majority of the population continues to consume. The only population control that we have currently, is ignorance. It might not solve the problem, but at least it contributes to an increase in mortality, and lower average age. And since the average person would rather spend money on their hedonistic pursuits, than proper food, just about the best we can hope for, is a (relatively speaking) sustainable source of sub-optimal/intentionally detrimental food.

 

[Pr0digal_son]

Which is why we shouldn't be complaining about GMOs. Assuming for a second that GMOs aren't actually harmful, we are due for a population doubling in ~40 years time. That's a disaster for just about everything.

I advocate more GMO and corn based food products, along with continuing to add more sweeteners to everything that the majority of the population continues to consume. The only population control that we have currently, is ignorance. It might not solve the problem, but at least it contributes to an increase in mortality, and lower average age. And since the average person would rather spend money on their hedonistic pursuits, than proper food, just about the best we can hope for, is a (relatively speaking) sustainable source of sub-optimal/intentionally detrimental food.

I think this is contempt for Americans and their diets? I've been called Thanos by folks at work. Some population control sounds great to me,but maybe something that doesn't cause a slow death and a strain on the insurance and medical fields. But I'm thinking about actual poor people in the third world that depend on GMO's,not USA government assistance poor. I've had a chance to step outside of this country a few times and have seen what poor really means.

 

[solid7]

I think this is contempt for Americans and their diets? I've been called Thanos by folks at work. Some population control sounds great to me,but maybe something that doesn't cause a slow death and a strain on the insurance and medical fields. But I'm thinking about actual poor people in the third world that depend on GMO's,not USA government assistance poor. I've had a chance to step outside of this country a few times and have seen what poor really means.

I've been to dozens of countries on 4 separate continents - and I think that most 3rd world countries have better staple diets than we do here. The poor will always be the poor, with no clear winners on a poverty scale. Lots of factors for poverty, all of them outside of the discussion, but yet all relevant, at the same time. Until we collectively take responsibility for our irresponsible breeding habits, we'll continue to watch every other species slowly disappear, which will have a cascading effect on our own hijacking of natural selection (until we possibly become cannibalistic?).

Even though you're not wrong about my contempt for our local problems, by extrapolation, no population should ever "have to" depend on GMOs, because we shouldn't be that successful at thwarting the devices of nature. But we are, so we're having a contemporary conversation, built upon the foundation of a sickly, but thriving populace - the majority of whom, their sole functions seem to be to consume and make waste products, all whilst scoffing in the face of their own mortality.

It would be fantastic if employers and/or insurance companies were allowed to deny benefits and coverage to those who serially abuse themselves. Smoke cigarettes for 50 years, and now have emphysema or lung cancer? Out of pocket for you, mate. Alcoholic? No new liver for you. Much like denial of warranty, for people who try to perform their own modifications on purchased goods. I think we'd see a drastic difference in both the quality and cost of medical care, as well as individual discretion on when, and for what, it is received. (maybe stop covering births after two, would be smart)

To bring this full circle - those who can prove that they are interested in maintaining good health, should get first choice in treatment, only perhaps behind people with hereditary conditions. I don't always agree with the things that the "organic" crowd claim or recommend, but at least they show a desire to make every effort to keep their vessel clean.

 

[Marturo]

Solid7 said: I don't always agree with the things that the "organic" crowd claim or recommend, but at least they show a desire to make every effort to keep their vessel clean.

Well one last thought.
I was born in Louisiana then off to Japan before my first birthday, not to land again for keeps until I spent 16 years on US Army posts around the world.

If you have eaten Army Chow well, it was my Father who taught us to shop the Mercado's out side the wire if we wanted great food.
When you go to school with the people who live there, you soon learn that everyone grows their own food & sell or trade the rest.
I ate some of the best organic food when I sat down to a meal with my friends & their families. 50s & 60s time line

The fact I rode my bike through great clouds of DDT & I'm am still alive at 70. Well I don't know what if anything it means however as
for the parents of my School mates they had no chemical garden bug killers. Like my wife & I did back in the 70s you hand pick, blend bugs up & spray them on the plants like picking slugs at 10 pm & salting them all after a hard days work.

I do not give a damn how anyone else eats, I have always believed in two things : Your body your choice & survival of the fittest!
BTW we old timers today just say, Clean food to make it simple.

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[Max Nihil]

I did X and I'm fine so X is fine etc logic is fallacious

Survival of the fittest eh?

Using it as a justification argument for harming others and the environment is sociopathic and I am personally disgusted by that attitude and despise the consequences it has wrought upon those whose only crime was to be born after people like you.

Blocked.