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People Copying Website Content - David Lechner

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1. when people say "linking" they refer to leaving a text path to the image, not displaying it.

That's not the definition of link.

"A link from a hypertext file or document to another location or file, typically activated by clicking on a highlighted word or image on the screen"
Let the personal comments aside, all of your claims are based on that fact you are indeed "linking" to a picture.
Have you read the actual definition you supplied?

I admit English may not be my native language, but it seems to me as if a link is text, file, image or whatever that when clicks on, leads you to a different location. you're not linking to the picture. you're using the link (AKA path or location) of the picture to display it. does it really matter if you host it or not? it's THE SAME END RESULT. people go into your website and see other people's images. if that what made image use free for all, I wouldn't think anyone would actually host any images.

Here's a LINK to Wikipedia's page on links. I know it's not the most accurate source, but good enough to get the big picture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink#Legal_issues

Also...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperlink#Legal_issues

Again, not trying to offend you. just 100% sure you're wrong.
 
I am linking to a picture, no different than what's done right here at THP tens of thousands of times.
THP is a user content driven site, the posts are posted by someone other than the website owner. There are copyright and TM violations galore. With the way the Internet works, if someone makes a post and wants to add an image to make it funny, etc., they google it, and post it. It's common on here, other forums, Facebook, Twitter. Where it is hosted does not matter. If the TM holder or copyright holder were to send me a cease and deist with proof of ownership I would take it down. I would not say it's actually hosted in China, or someone else posted it. It's displayed on my site. FB and YT and all user content sites work this way. Reactively, to proven claims, and not proactively, as they can't monitor every post and they can't speculate on ownership.

The difference with your site is, you are the content provider, not users. So you sought these pictures out yourself. You are trying to rationalize it by saying they are hosted somewhere else. If you want to wait for cease and desist letters, fine. But it may work in your favor to ask permission first, since you are dealing with community members.

That's my insight, and last post on the matter. Hope your site works out and good luck
 
Sometimes when a thread is started it does not proceed as we anticipated.

Use this thread as a prime example.


To sum it all up..............Let he who is without sin cast the first stone..........
 
I admit English may not be my native language, but it seems to me as if a link is text, file, image or whatever that when clicks on, leads you to a different location. you're not linking to the picture. you're using the link (AKA path or location) of the picture to display it.

Dude, if you click on potawies pictures on my site they take you to Flikr. If that's not a link I don't know what is.

Let the personal comments aside...

Again, not trying to offend you. just 100% sure you're wrong.

Omri let's be clear about one thing, you're the one making the personal attacks, not me. You have compared to me a man using hookers and accused me multiple times of breaking the law. You have provided zero evidence that any law has actually been broken yet you continue to attack my character. Wouldn't you be offended if I did that to you? What exactly am I 100% wrong about? I've simply pointed out the difference between fact an opinion and challenged your allegations in a number of different ways. You have ignored all of my questions and comments and continue to have a one way conversation where you speak at me instead of talk with me. Like I sad before if you would like to debate the legality or ethics of linking to a picture then let's do it. That involves you actually answering my questions and responding to my comments. If not and you prefer to keep talking at me then this will be my last reply to any of your further posts in this thread. For the record...

1. I'm linking to a picture.
2. Have given full credit
3. Because I'm linking and not hosting Potawie retains full control, if he sets the picture to private or changes anything that would automatically be reflected on my site.
4. No laws have been violated
5. Opinions vary on the ethics of linking to a picture, to each their own


THP is a user content driven site, the posts are posted by someone other than the website owner. There are copyright and TM violations galore. With the way the Internet works, if someone makes a post and wants to add an image to make it funny, etc., they google it, and post it. It's common on here, other forums, Facebook, Twitter. Where it is hosted does not matter. If the TM holder or copyright holder were to send me a cease and deist with proof of ownership I would take it down. I would not say it's actually hosted in China, or someone else posted it. It's displayed on my site. FB and YT and all user content sites work this way. Reactively, to proven claims, and not proactively, as they can't monitor every post and they can't speculate on ownership.

The difference with your site is, you are the content provider, not users. So you sought these pictures out yourself. You are trying to rationalize it by saying they are hosted somewhere else. If you want to wait for cease and desist letters, fine. But it may work in your favor to ask permission first, since you are dealing with community members.

That's my insight, and last post on the matter. Hope your site works out and good luck

Where it's hosted absolutely does matter in terms of the law. Maybe it doesn't to you but legally it does. See my previous example regarding Google / Youtube. Speaking of which Google does use proactive measures in relation to TM protection in addition to reactive measures in various products and services they offer. If you received a cease and desists and removed something that someone was simply linking to you would be doing that because you wanted to not because you legally had to. If the content was physically hosted on your server that would be a different story and you would be legally required to take action. In terms of the difference in content publishing - user generated vs owner of a site that would make zero different. An owner of a site is legally responsible for content hosted on that site regardless of who put it there. While crucifying me you're trying to rationalize thousands of TM and copyright violations on this site saying "it's not me, it's them". Legally it is you because this is your site, the fact that it's user generated content means nothing.

Like I said I'm fine with anyone taking a different personal position on the ethics of linking to a picture. There's a huge portion of the population that feels that way. Since we've been talking about Google there are a ton of people that thinks the Google business model can be equated to theft. They use other people's content in almost everything they do and make billions of dollars in the process. I see that side of the coin and am not trying to convince anyone that my onion is any more right than theirs. What I am doing is responding to the attacks made on my character and clarifying the legal aspects so as to not have fact confused with fiction.
 
1. I'm linking to a picture.
2. Have given full credit
3. Because I'm linking and not hosting Potawie retains full control, if he sets the picture to private or changes anything that would automatically be reflected on my site.
4. No laws have been violated
5. Opinions vary on the ethics of linking to a picture, to each their own
Just because a picture is linking to web page or even itself, it does not mean you're not displaying the picture.
If a person owns the rights to a certain picture and he doesn't want you to use it on your website, you won't. displaying it, hosted by you or not, is using it. that's not a matter of opinion, but fact. furthermore, depending on the person and case, you might have to remove a link as well. even if it's just a text.

You saying it's ok again and again will not make it ok.
 
PepperGrowingMan -

I'm right there with you on this whole fiasco, you offered to settle the issue like a gentleman by dealing directly with the 'offended' party and complying with any request that he/she made. End of problem, issue over, done, resolved....we can all move on.

However, I have so say that you are mistaken with your premise that linking to third-party content and importing that content onto your own page is not in violation of copyright law. I've been in the web design game for 13 years+ and have been on the delivery and receiving end of copyright issues. The simple fact is that you are displaying content on your website without the owners permission. The mechanics of how that display is made are irrelevant, the point it that someone's content appears on your website without their express written permission. If you provide a hyperlink to another website (like Flickr), without actually displaying their content on your website, then that is something completely different - you are directing a visitor at your website to content which resides on another website, via a hyperlink. You are not displaying their content on your site via that hyperlink.

Edit - I had a vitamin website many years ago and found a stock, generic picture somewhere via google of 3 doctors stood together wearing their white coats with smiling faces. I used the image in a banner on my website alongside several other stock images I found. After around 6 months I received a letter from an attorney acting on behalf of Getty Images. I hadn't taken the image from the Getty website, it was just floating around the web. The letter instructed me to remove the image and to pay for back royalties for use of the image to the tune of $1200 It also threatened that if I didn't resolve the matter in this way, they reserved the right to sue me for all website income derived from the illegal use of their image. That's basic copyright law and a very expensive mistake. Where the image file was actually hosted was completely irrelevant.
 
Omri done speaking with you on the subject. You have demonstrated an almost uncanny ability to seemingly respond over and over without actually responding to anything I'm writing and seem to use the terms fact opinion without any regard for the actual meaning of the words. Speaking of the law, isn't smearing someone's character in a public setting with false accusations called slander? Reread my previous posts & requests if you would like to continue with any further discussion.

PepperGrowingMan -
However, I have so say that you are mistaken with your premise that linking to third-party content and importing that content onto your own page is not in violation of copyright law. I've been in the web design game for 13 years+ and have been on the delivery and receiving end of copyright issues. The simple fact is that you are displaying content on your website without the owners permission. The mechanics of how that display is made are irrelevant, the point it that someone's content appears on your website without their express written permission. If you provide a hyperlink to another website (like Flickr), without actually displaying their content on your website, then that is something completely different - you are directing a visitor at your website to content which resides on another website, via a hyperlink. You are not displaying their content on your site via that hyperlink.

Edit - I had a vitamin website many years ago and found a stock, generic picture somewhere via Google of 3 doctors stood together wearing their white coats with smiling faces. I used the image in a banner on my website alongside several other stock images I found. After around 6 months I received a letter from an attorney acting on behalf of Getty Images. I hadn't taken the image from the Getty website, it was just floating around the web. The letter instructed me to remove the image and to pay for back royalties for use of the image to the tune of $1200 It also threatened that if I didn't resolve the matter in this way, they reserved the right to sue me for all website income derived from the illegal use of their image. That's basic copyright law and a very expensive mistake. Where the image file was actually hosted was completely irrelevant.

Hey rooze thanks for the info. I've been at this for 15+ years and think there are a few key differences in your situation vs what happened here. I would like to offer some more specific info around this issue as well. Let me explain my point of view. Please read this in the sprit in which it's intended. I'm just discussing this issue and really appreciate your comments in this thread and you offering your point of view. :cheers:


PepperGrowingMan -
However, I have so say that you are mistaken with your premise that linking to third-party content and importing that content onto your own page is not in violation of copyright law. I've been in the web design game for 13 years+ and have been on the delivery and receiving end of copyright issues. The simple fact is that you are displaying content on your website without the owners permission. The mechanics of how that display is made are irrelevant, the point it that someone's content appears on your website without their express written permission. If you provide a hyperlink to another website (like Flickr), without actually displaying their content on your website, then that is something completely different - you are directing a visitor at your website to content which resides on another website, via a hyperlink. You are not displaying their content on your site via that hyperlink.

I hear ya but have to disagree. I think that's opinion and the examples I've posted about Google are a great example of why it can't be true. If it was Google's entire business is illegal. When you use the share code provided by flikr it creates the link and shows the image. The owner of the photo retains complete control, nothing is "imported". Importing would result in actual hosting. Hosting content is one thing but linking - even if that includes showing - is something different. Like I said if it's not someone needs to explain how Google operates the way they do. Also text is just as protected as image in the eyes of the law so to say it's ok to use a companies trademark in a text link is ok but linking to a photo is not needs some clarification. How is one use ok but the other is not?

Edit - I had a vitamin website many years ago and found a stock, generic picture somewhere via google of 3 doctors stood together wearing their white coats with smiling faces. I used the image in a banner on my website alongside several other stock images I found. After around 6 months I received a letter from an attorney acting on behalf of Getty Images. I hadn't taken the image from the Getty website, it was just floating around the web. The letter instructed me to remove the image and to pay for back royalties for use of the image to the tune of $1200 It also threatened that if I didn't resolve the matter in this way, they reserved the right to sue me for all website income derived from the illegal use of their image. That's basic copyright law and a very expensive mistake. Where the image file was actually hosted was completely irrelevant.

There are a few key differences here. 1) you were hosting the image 2) you had a commercial venture and were using that image to profit 3) you did not give proper credit 4) just because a lawyer sends something doesn't make it law/right. In the absence of us being lawyers and actually taking this to court I keep falling back on the Google example because of their business model. Google will remove protected content from YouTube because they actually host that content. Google will not remove an image from image search because they don't actually host that content, they just show links to on their pages. Google even takes it a step further and profits from other people's images by posting ads above the,. All of the research I've done over time and things I've read over the past few years lead me to believe that this is an issue that's still very much up in the air and yet to be worked out by the courts. Here's an example:

"Inline linking: Inline linking involves placing a line of HTML on your site that so that your webpage displays content directly from another site. We now commonly refer to this practice as embedding. For example, many bloggers embed videos from YouTube on their blogs to illustrate a point or initiate discussion. While there is some uncertainty on this point, a recent case from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals concluded that inline linking does not directly infringe copyright because no copy is made on the site providing the link; the link is just HTML code pointing to the image or other material. See Perfect 10, Inc. v. Google, Inc., 508 F.3d 1146 (2007). Other courts may or may not follow this reasoning. However, the Ninth Circuit's decision is consistent with the majority of copyright linking cases which have found that linking, whether simple, deep, or inline, does not give rise to liability for copyright infringement. For discussion of these cases, see The Internet Law Treatise. In addition, merely using an inline link should not create trademark liability, unless you do something affirmative to create the impression that you are somehow affiliated with or endorsed by the site to which you are linking. Thus, embedding media in your online work should not expose you to legal liability, with the possible exceptions discussed below. "

Source: http://www.citmedial...ghted-materials

Speaking on the lagality of embedded video the perfect 10 case is again referenced:

"As von Lohmann writes, this makes embedded video just like any other in-line image links found on the web, including Google Image's search functionality. This is significant because an important recent case from the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, Perfect 10 v. Google Inc., held that Google Image's in-line linking of copyrighted photographic images posted on third-party websites did not constitute direct copyright infringement of the plaintiff's display or distribution rights because no copies of the plaintiff's photographic images were stored on Google's computers. The court wrote:

Google does not, however, display a copy of full-size infringing photographic images for purposes of the Copyright Act when Google frames in-line linked images that appear on a user's computer screen. Because Google's computers do not store the photographic images, Google does not have a copy of the images for purposes of the Copyright Act. In other words, Google does not have any "material objects . . . in which a work is fixed . . . and from which the work can be perceived, reproduced, or otherwise communicated" and thus cannot communicate a copy.

The court went on to conclude that HTML instructions do not themselves cause infringing images to appear on a user's computer screen because the HTML instructions merely convey an address to the user's browser, which itself must then interact with the server that stores the infringing image. Accordingly, the mere provision of HTML instructions, in the view of the 9th Circuit, does not create a basis for direct copyright infringement liability. Perfect 10 thus provides good support for the proposition that embedding a video on your blog or website, which is essentially just an in-line link, does not expose you to liability for direct infringement. Of course, Perfect 10 is not the last word on this issue, but it is a recent decision from a prestigious court with a history of important copyright decisions. What's more, Perfect 10 's conclusions are consistent with the majority of copyright infringement cases involving linking, which have found that linking, whether it is simple, deep, or in-line linking, does not give rise to liability for direct copyright infringement. See The Internet Law Treatise's discussion of linking . We will be addressing linking issues in more detail in the forthcoming CMLP Legal Guide, which is still a work in progress."

Edit - here's the link to the full article: http://www.citmedialaw.org/blog/2007/sam-bayard/embedded-video-and-copyright-infringement

So I think it's safe to say that at the present time the legality of image linking is up in the air. While the cases cited above clearly show the law agrees with me in this case I'm sure there are other examples that could show the opposite. So I guess really it comes down to to your ethical beliefs. From an ethical point of view I think it's completely ok to link to picture (call it embedding) as long as you give credit and are not attempting to profit from someone else's work or pass it off as your own. Opinions will vary I respect those who have opinions on the other side of the issue.
 
So I think it's safe to say that at the present time the legality of image linking is up in the air. While the cases cited above clearly show the law agrees with me in this case I'm sure there are other examples that could show the opposite. So I guess really it comes down to to your ethical beliefs. From an ethical point of view I think it's completely ok to link to picture (call it embedding) as long as you give credit and are not attempting to profit from someone else's work or pass it off as your own. Opinions will vary I respect those who have opinions on the other side of the issue.

There really is some unexplored territory out there! I don't think there's a truly safe route to do anything much on the web. One important principal of web marketing and SEO is to encourage other websites to 'link' through to yours. That encourages the flow of 'link juice' which as you know can increases the rankings of the target website, particularly with Google, who rely heavily on this system of 'voting'. So in that regard most companies are encouraging the display of their company name, or products or some snippet of information on other websites. You could argue that displaying an image is somehow infringing on the intellectual property rights of the image owner and that it might be displayed to directly influence buying decisions on the offending site. But then you could also say the same about hyperlink text, which could be used to give an impression of an association with the target site and thus falsely inflating the reputation of the offending site? Where does it end?

With youtube, I think that's mostly covered in the fact that you can't upload a video without creating an account and you must first agree to the TOC, which emphasizes the requirement that the video copyright must be owned by the uploader. S/he then has the option to make the video public domain, whereupon the embed code is shown and it can be freely distributed (embeded or linked-to). I'm not sure what the case is at Flickr, I presume it's something similar.
But Google images is another story altogether. They scrape together images from websites many of whom have clear copyright statements preventing the use of information on the site without the owners permission. The technicality of where the image is hosted really ought not to be the determining factor in the debate. You could argue that Google are empowering those who partake in copyright theft/infringement, which ought to have some penalty in itself.
On the issue of financial gain, I'm not sure that that is meaningful in this debate. My understanding is that is doesn't absolve a person from the need to observe copyright law (to say that the breach didn't result in financial gain), it merely increases the potential for penalty and 'damages' should a claim be successfully filed. (I tried to have a 'movie night' at a music venue that I owned a few years back, but couldn't do so without a very expensive license. It made absolutely no difference to the need/cost whether I charged people for the viewing or not).

So with all the grey around it's fair to say that one should tread cautiously !! (stating the obvious :) )

Citing the reference/source with a link and a statement ought to be enough, morally, ethically and in terms of common sense. But I'm not certain that it is. For example, many websites have the text 'Copyright - do not use content / images without the expressed written permission of the site owner' - or some variant of the statement. Would it still be legal to use information even where a back-link and author credit were displayed?

It sure is a murky world. There are software tools you can buy for a few bucks that go out and scrape the web, picking up articles belonging to whomever, and 'spinning' the content so that it looks slightly different to the original. The owner then posts the content on his/her website claiming it to be unique and their property. The whole world of Internet Marketing is evolving like a big black cloud....I wish I'd never gotten involved with it :hell:

Good luck with sorting this out :beer:
 
the whole world of Internet Marketing is evolving like a big black cloud....I wish I'd never gotten involved with it :hell:


It's an awesome field and those in it are helping shape the future of the web, including all the legal stuff. Right now and in my case it just comes down to common sense. While I'm confident there's ample precedent and the law would be on my side I didn't write the Butch T post with the law in mind. I put it together for my fellow pepper heads and in cases where I used images I did everything possible to give credit under what I consider "standard and acceptable" practices on the web. I sleep well at night, no guilty conscience :)

Potawie, we have chatted outside of this thread but I think it's important for me to add one point and to add it publicly. If you felt or feel that I have wronged you in any way please accept my apologies. As I've told you privately I have and had nothing but the best of intentions in relation to the post. Thank you for you understanding and if you need or want anything else from me you know how to get in touch.

For others reading this thread that may have just skipped to the end here's the summary. I'm only adding this because because throughout this thread my character has been attacked and certain participants have confused fact and opinion and to date have been completely unwilling to acknowledge those errors. When these happen offline people can just walk away and it's forgotten. When they happen online a record can remain forever.

1. I linked to a set of pictures Potawie has hosted on Flikr using the share code provided on the page with the pictures. In addition to the link I provided another link to his profile here and clearly labeled the pictures as his.
2. I never attempted to pass his work off as my own or profit from it.
3. Despite some of the inaccurate and uniformed comments (some of which border on slander) in this thread there's sufficient legal precedent to support my position that my actions are completely within the guidelines of the law.
4. In hindsight I wish I would have asked Potawie ahead of time. Not because I have to, legally or in my opinion ethically, but because he's damn cool guy and as I've stated a few times I never intended to make him unhappy.

:beer:
 
Oh come on. it's so obvious you need to ask for permission. not because you're a nice guy, but because you can't use those pictures without permission.

Also... flickr lets all of its members to choose what people can, and can't do with their pictures. POTAWIE did NOT set it so people can use it for whatever they want, but chose the "All rights reserved" option. meaning it's stated that he, and only he chooses if you can or can't use his pictures and for what purpose. drop the act. you're not a saint.
 
Damnit! Iv'e gone run outta beer reading all these words!

Ima git me lawyers onto google see if they will part with a few bucks for another carton...
 
Oh come on. it's so obvious you need to ask for permission. not because you're a nice guy, but because you can't use those pictures without permission.

Do you need help understanding what I have posted? Your continued display of ignorance on this subject is astonishing.

drop the act. you're not a saint.

I've never claimed to be a saint have just stated I'm comfortable with the decisions I've made. On the other hand I think you are arrogant condescending bully who started a debate on a subject you know absolutely nothing about and now that every single point you have raised has been proven wrong you can't bring yourself to admit you were wrong and just walk away. Keep trying to get the last word in Omri, every post you make on this subject just continues to demonstrate your ignorance on the subject.
 
Calling me an ignorant doesn't make you right.

Of course not, facts make me right. You accused me of breaking the law. The fact is there is legal precedent, which I have supplied, that clearly shows linking/embedding an image is not a violation of any law. That is fact. What you have posted is opinion, opinion that happens to be incorrect. By the way "ignorant" is not a derogatory term it just means lacking knowledge.

You know Omri in the offline world when people make mistakes or inadvertently insult people due to ignorance they acknowledge that mistake, usually in the form of an apology. At least that's what decent people do. I never set out to prove anything in this thread but won't sit by while someone attacks my character. You've attacked my character again and again and despite solid evidence that you your opinions were incorrect you refuse to do what decent people do. That's why I stand by statement that you're an arrogant condescending bully.
 
I think all has been said. Closed.
 
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