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breeding Pepper crossing question

Hey all,

I wanted to get into pepper crossing this year. I kinda did last year but didn't emasculate the receiving flowers at all, so left it up to chance to see if they would pollinate by brushing the flower I wanted to use as my 'male' and then putting a very small seed ziplock plastic around it that also contained the male flower touching the pistol just in case my initial transfer didn't work. I do see somewhere between 25% to 50% of my crosses are much different looking so it was somewhat a success. I'll do the real steps (aka emasculating) for new crosses i want to make to get that up to 100% this year :). But anyway I had a question.

For the crossing guide on https://www.fatalii.net/growing_chile_peppers/breeding (chart below), they mention: "PF = F1 hybrids partially fertile", what does that mean?
The seeds of the cross I got last year that I am growing this year, aka my first year of the cross (aka F1), the seeds of those may or may not be fertile?
So if they grew out this spring and became plants this year, then Im good since that proves that particular F1 seed was Fertile? and every single plant of next year's generation will be viable/fertile and so on and so on (just have to stabilize the variation/genetics i want)?

or does that mean this years upcoming F1's seeds (which will become next years F2 plant) will only be partially fertile? So some of those seeds i collect this year may or may not actually grow next year?

Sorry if that was confusing, but hopefully someone can answer :).

NG = F1 hybrids germinate normally
EC = F1 hybrids raised by embryo culture
IV = fruits/seeds set, but F1 seeds inviable
PF = F1 hybrids partially fertile
HF = F1 hybrids highly fertile
 
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Here are two new ones from my garden...
These are from F2 hybrid #2 (GrenadaSeasoning x BiquinhoYellow, F1 yellow+non-spicy parent pic is qouted below), where both the parents were not spicy, has stronger Hab-like flavor, and yellow.
They also are not spicy, and have that strong Hab-like flavor I want, and yellow (although slightly different shapes) and i would say probably smaller compact plants similar to how BiquinhoYellow would grow (although I have them in smaller pots so its a bit hard to gage how tall they would grow if they were in-ground).

368600016_10105135930960086_6607205109024995843_n.jpg
.
368587116_10105135930985036_8714984869358180813_n.jpg



Cool, thanks for the info. I'll check it out

I'll post more pics in a couple weeks once they all become ripe and I'm more sure they crossed.
Here is my first pepper to ripen this year this week that Im sure crossed (as they dont have the shape of BY, kinda a more medium size. smaller than GS but slightly larger[and definitely thinner] than BY)... also has the same 'no-heat' flavor of both:
GrenadaSeasoning x BiquinhoYellow: Chinense x Chinense = HF

20220812_173541.jpg
 
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How do i know if my pepper have turned T1-T5? i have been cross pollinating my peppers for about 3 years now but i dont really see much difference other then this big red pepper that is supposed to be green unless the vendor i bough it of when i was traveling to Istanbul told me wrong, could it be cross polinated with my other thai chillies and carolina reaper? as the shape of this red pepper is a bit wrinkly like carolina is.
The taste and flavor is a bit not sure how to say it but at start its kind of sweet flavor and then 20sec later it gets spicy

IMG_6741 (1).jpg
FD748F6F-B05A-404F-B1CA-E0869914A692 (1).jpg
 
Here is another one from my F2 #1 line (aka GrenadaSeasoning[yellow+notSpicy+mediumSize] x PĂ©rola Iaranja[peach+spicy+superSmallSize]; F1 plants last year was spicy+red+mediumSize):
Thinner profile, orange color. Has Habanero flavor but zero heat. Def has a great fruity flavor.
This might be my fav so far but will keep sampling more fruit as they come in.
This is the 1st from the "NotHot x Hot" cross from my own plants that has zero/low heat... so 2/4 (50%) so far.
20230821_162704.jpg



Here is 2nd one from #1 line from another grower of mine which is 'not hot' as well:
366364263_10220527427090071_6778870696812726294_n.jpg


Here are a couple new ones from the F2 hybrid #2 (GrenadaSeasoning[yellow+notSpicy+mediumSize] x BiquinhoYellow[yellow+notSpicy+smallerMediumSize]; F1 last year was yellow+notSpicy+smallerMediumSize).
Both were not-spicy with Hab flavor... so 4/4 (so 100% of all F2 plants so far are all notSpicy+Hab flavor attribute).

20230823_181502.jpg
 
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Hey @Sinder , This is mostly just a grow log for the hundreds of peppers I have in my own hybrid. You might want to open your own thread to ask as it may get lost in the many pictures i post here.
ah sorry, tough it would be a place to ask since were kind of both doing the same just you have more knowledge about it i guess, cross breeding is mainly what interests me in the pepper growing part.
 
Today's new results :):
20230824_135309.jpg


One new one from my own #1 F2 line above (aka GrenadaSeasoning[yellow+notSpicy+mediumSize] x PĂ©rola Iaranja[peach+spicy+superSmallSize]; F1 plants last year was spicy+red+mediumSize).
I loved the 3-sided yellow acorn small shape of "13-#1-2"... I wanted a smaller not-hot pepper (preferable Aji Charapita size but still still was small enough to satisfy me). but its hot ... but not unbearably, like around 4 to 5 out of 10 (to me thats Aji Lemon Drop kinda heat).
I wonder if the F3 line has a chance of getting the 'not hot' attribute in it. I may still grow these seeds out next year.
Also another grower got a #1, kinda elongated bean shaped:
369859271_10228122433717573_4699482590024501306_n.jpg

This one I got varying hotness levels from her... 0, then 3, then 6...
I'm going to say its a 6 then as maybe she is eating at various ripeness levels.

Variety #1 Running Tally Results (2023 F2 generation): 2 out of 6 plants not hot (33%)


Two new ones from the #2 F2 line also in that 1st pic (GrenadaSeasoning[yellow+notSpicy+mediumSize] x BiquinhoYellow[yellow+notSpicy+smallerMediumSize]; F1 last year was yellow+notSpicy+smallerMediumSize).
Both were not-spicy with Hab flavor...
8-#2-2 has a flat profile and long tail on all the pods. kinda cool.
4-#2-1 grows a bit like the BiquinhoYellow parent. small plant good for containers. Alot of the pods have a cute end tip similar to Biquinho (maybe these pods don't have that but alot of them do).

Variety #2 Running Tally Results (2023 F2 generation): so now we are at 6 out of 6 (so 100% of all F2 plants so far are all notSpicy+Hab flavor attribute and they actually all are yellow/orange colored so far).
 
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Here is what i mean about 4-#2-1 ... it is fat at the top and may pinch a bit at the bottom... but not as much as BiquinhoYellow, and occasionally get some fruits like the one of the very left where it has a normal looking tail.
(btw the various dry white colors on the pods and leaves are fungal/bacteria-type/aphid sprays)
20230824_145206.jpg


Here is the flat profile of 8-#2-2 where rotate to its side:
20230824_145226.jpg

20230824_145229.jpg
 
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I was reading an old thread on this site (maybe in a comment by you @CaneDog) how 'Hybrid Vigor' (not sure if that means resistance to diseases or generally a very productive fast growing plant) might be lost in a hybrid cross, unless you also cross the F1 generation with other F1's to get a larger gene pool into the new hybrid.
Is that recommended/true?

Can you still do that in the F2, or F3 generations, or too late at that point ?

Are most pepper crosses done this way? or not and hence they get diseases a bit easier?

EDIT: here was the useful comments i found by @CaneDog in that older thread:
 
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Some new ones (along with some old ones to compare to)
Think all of them not hot except "13-#1-1" (top right),
And 9-#1-1, 12-#1-1, 14-#1-1 red ones in bottom right.
11-#1-1 is red but not spicy.
...
So the results so far are:
3/10 (30%) of #1 is not-hot (and different shapes and a few diff colors, orange-yellow, red, and 1 orange-peachish one).
and
10/10 of #2 (100%) is not-hot (and all yellow ... might be a few slightly more orange-yellow and maybe a few new lemon-yellow ones coming up next few days)
20230829_172817.jpg


1-#2-2 also a new one (not hot):
20230828_172854.jpg



Plus a new #2 one from one of my growers (also not hot):
pear.jpg
 
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I was reading an old thread on this site (maybe in a comment by you @CaneDog) how 'Hybrid Vigor' (not sure if that means resistance to diseases or generally a very productive fast growing plant) might be lost in a hybrid cross, unless you also cross the F1 generation with other F1's to get a larger gene pool into the new hybrid.
Is that recommended/true?

Can you still do that in the F2, or F3 generations, or too late at that point ?
I typically consider hybrid vigor from a simple dominance perspective. Natural selection is quicker to weed out adverse dominant alleles than it is adverse recessive alleles. It makes sense, because if you have a bad dominant allele it will show up in the phenotype regardless of whether it pairs or not and only what shows in the phenotype can make the plant weaker. Recessive alleles have to pair in order to express in the phenotype, thus they can "hide" behind dominant alleles and remain longer in the gene pool despite their potential adverse expression.

Once you isolate a gene pool - stabilization = inbreeding - the recessive alleles will often pair and express in the phenotype, which has the potential of limiting a variety's ability to thrive. However, when you hybridize that variety with another variety, only the dominant genes will express themselves in the F1 generation (except to the extent both varieties had paired recessive alleles at the same loci), thus the adverse recessives that hang around in the gene pool of a variety and limit growth potential manifest themselves at a potentially highly reduced percentage in the F1 phenotype. This is an advantage of F1 hybrid seeds like Mad Hatter that are always sold as F1. They take two super-stable / homozygous parents that create predictable F1's and know that most of the junk recessive genes will remain hidden in the F1. With every generation after F1 though, the recessive alleles will start pairing up again and ruining the good thing.

So, there's not much you can do about that TMU. If you introduce new genes, you'll change your pepper, and as you stabilize that new pepper you'll again lose much of your hybrid vigor effect.

I think of hybrid vigor as growth and thriving. I think recessive alleles predisposing a sensitivity to pathogens could be reduced through hybrid vigor, but I tend to think of hybridizing and selecting for protective genes to be the avenue researchers are more likely taking on that.
 
I was wondering. For that small yellow pepper I got which is hot, lets say 75% of the plants grown next year in F3 will be the same look/heat-level/color (and I guess I could stabilize that) ... But do you think I can get a 'not hot' genetics to show up in any of next year's F3 generation (pretend in any leftover 25% 'different' plants which aren't similar to the F2 this year) then stabilize that in future years?
It will take an extra year to find what I want... but I was wondering if thats a common thing to find variations in F3/F4/F5 and actually move away from what you got in F2 generation and stabilize that other style.
 
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My results so far of F2 variety #1 and #2 (had alot of other excel fields like leaf shape but not really tracking those as much).
#1's so far is about 25-30% have the 'not hot' trait with various shapes+sizes (although getting a smaller round shape is more rare like 6%).
To get both small round shape + 'not hot' traits together, i wonder if i should plant out even more F2s next year, instead of growing F3's next year (although I do like some of the F2's highlighted in yellow below to grow to stabilize).
It could be a fun experiment to see if the 'small acorn shaped' hot one has recessive genes for non-hotness that come out in F3 generation.

#2's are always 100% yellow + not hot with not a super amount of variation between the shapes.
:

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Some more pics from my growers...
A 'not hot' yellow #2, very prolific looks like (I use pots and don't get this kinda production so its hard to tell how prolific they are gonna be from my own plants):
370113611_10100793513434944_6716961010349643238_n.jpg


a not hot #1 (this shape is the most common from #1's and what they looked like also last year in F1)...
Although yellow color in #1's is about 25-30% while its 100% in #2's
:
370056731_10100793513469874_2283390174082508559_n.jpg


A bit more unusual shaped ones from #1's from another grower (peach-orange colors are about 13% of #1's so far ):
384467395_1041613333690968_4979180530996871271_n.jpg
 
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