nutrients Phosphorus Deficiency or Nute Burn?

[GetLost]

So is there a great all in one that uses organic sourced ingredients that you recommend? For coco and perlite grows?

I have my organic soil grows failed in already outdoors. Thats pretty simple. I just dont want to introduce live pests into my indoors planting area

 

[solid7]

So is there a great all in one that uses organic sourced ingredients that you recommend? For coco and perlite grows?

I have my organic soil grows failed in already outdoors. Thats pretty simple. I just dont want to introduce live pests into my indoors planting area

 
Organic?  No.  Great, yes.  For organic single product, I would/have use Alaska fish food for an entire outdoor grow, but I wouldn't recommend it indoors.  CNS17 Grow is what I use for my indoor or porch grows, start to finish.  I build my media with 7/3/1, Coco, perlite, worm castings.  I add a bit of humic acid from leonardite, and that's it.  Grows like a champ.  No silly "veg" and "bloom" formulas, no extras of any kind.  You add CNS17, it's got all the calcium that both the plant and the coco need, and in turn, it unlocks all of the potassium that you'll ever need (from the coco), and gets rid of locked up sodium.  And as stated, P isn't needed in the quantities that the grow shop gang would have you believe. (uneducated pot growers are responsible for the high P growing craze)
.
To clarify - I don't have a problem feeding my plant with inorganic, because it's all derived from minerals - which is what most soils are majorly comprised of.  The organic part (not OMRI, just the true use of the word) is your coco and worm castings.  Live pests will come, no matter what.  You will inevitably get fungus gnats in any organic media put into a house. (heck, you'll even get them in hydroton - they will feed on the algae, and roots when that's not available)  That's just how it goes.  I doubt very highly that there are vey many members here who don't deal with live pests in indoor plants.  And if you don't want critters in the house, organic is the WORST way to go.  With organics, you kind of depend on symbiotic relationships with the critters to break it down, and extract the good stuff.  (I personally add earthworms and a local variety of burrowing cockroach to most of my plants to help keep it turned up and broken down)
.
I'd be curious to know why your organic outdoor grows failed.  

 

[GetLost]

Oh lol its supposed to say DIALED in not failed in. Spell check haha.

Ive had nothing but success in organic outdoors. I use fish outdoors. I make my own emulsion and FAA from a local market where I get their fish scraps and cull veggies for composting.

I make lactobacillus serum, fermented plant and fruit juices, and fish frets.

I use organic feets and potting soil in my large indoor plants but dont have fungus gnats. I jet my soil dry out quite a bit before watering .

Ive found that buying Home Depot soil that is jelly outdoors and gets rained on a pallet has gnats usually. If I use HD potting mixes I will spread it out on a tarp and let it completely dry on my concrete drive. Not in the grass.

 

[solid7]

 I use fish outdoors. I make my own emulsion and FAA from a local market where I get their fish scraps and cull veggies for composting.

I make lactobacillus serum, fermented plant and fruit juices, and fish frets.

 
Good man.  I do exactly the same thing.  I also have another version that I made with rabbit poo and seaweed.

 

[solid7]

Although I sourced my own fish and seaweed from the ocean, a couple blocks from my house.

 

[GetLost]

Lol Im jealous. I literally live in hell on earth haha. Texas. If the heat and drought wont kill em, the tornadoes will

Although I sourced my own fish and seaweed from the ocean, a couple blocks from my house.

 

[GetLost]

Okie dokie. Just updating. I wanted to put this out there in the ethos for the sole purpose of helping someone who may have the same experience and search for information.

I will do a glog on my venture starting in January with all the seeds I ordered and just got in. My suggestion is to order early t beat the wave.

K. So far my experience with coco is positive. It is a lot of work if hand watering. I am about to invest in a drip system and set that up at transplant. These are going
Into 1 gal fabric pots and ultimately into a 2 gal fabric pot before getting hardened off next spring and transplanted into raised beds organically. They will be monsters before the heat wave hits next summer and I will take a million clones from the healthiest top producer and keep indoors again. Assuming I can handle the pain of eating a Whole pod.

Coco grows respond immediately when treated as hydro. I suggest keeping a journal of everything you do. That way you can back track where the deviation occurred. So I backed off nutes down to 250-300 and continue to water and feed daily. This media is so light and oxygenated that it cannot go 2 days or it will become bone dry. Im using Botanicare readygro aeration for my media. I hydrated it before use and flushed until runoff was clear and matches the input water 10ppm. Using primo water here. Basically carbon filtered, RO, UV treated tap water

I fed 300ppm today and will keep them there for a few days and monitor. PH 5.8-6.1. Run off 20% + To waste.

Heres progress @ 4 weeks from seedling emerged from soil and 3 weeks from
Moving to tent under the ES300 led. I started at about 100 watts from
Wall and Ppfd of about 250 with a hang distance of about 30. Gradually increasing the intensity to about 400ppfd at 24 from tops of plants at about 130 watts from
Wall. I backed off from the 150watts I had them at which was about 435ppfd (maybe a bit strong for immature plants. I noticed mild purpling of the upper leaves edges. Maybe genetic but cant hurt to back off light a little and monitor.

 

[MGR]

Have experienced the exact same issue propagating indoors under LED with seedlings for super hots. Its an accumulation in the substrate. When building roots really fast, which happens under LEDs especially if running 18hr on plus per day, high levels of Ca & K that are buffered in the Coco are added to within initial feedings which can slow down P uptake and cause an issue. The solution i came up with was to increase the P ratio via adjusting with a small contribution of P/K 13/14 to the solution maintaining TDS at 300-350ppm and allowing for 50% plus of run off. best way to check if your on the right track is to test your run off with the TDS/EC reader and continuing irrigating until your input TDS of 300-350ppm 0.65EC to 0.75EC matches your run off. if your run off TDS is 700ppm or above you need to correct quickly. Do not flush with Ph water only unless directly afterwards you continue irrigating with a nutrient solution to restore the correct EC buffer in the substrate (by afterwards i mean directly ie within 30mins). plain water flushing completely removes the established buffer and will quickly lead to another deficiency especially if under high PAR and long day durations.
 
check out mulders chart of nutrient antagonisms - in this case it is mostly likely an over availability of Ca (accumulated in substrate) slowing down P uptake https://agradehydroponics.com/blogs/a-grade-news/nutrient-antagonism-which-nutrients-affect-others
hope it helps      

 

[GetLost]

Have experienced the exact same issue propagating indoors under LED with seedlings for super hots. Its an accumulation in the substrate. When building roots really fast, which happens under LEDs especially if running 18hr on plus per day, high levels of Ca & K that are buffered in the Coco are added to within initial feedings which can slow down P uptake and cause an issue. The solution i came up with was to increase the P ratio via adjusting with a small contribution of P/K 13/14 to the solution maintaining TDS at 300-350ppm and allowing for 50% plus of run off. best way to check if your on the right track is to test your run off with the TDS/EC reader and continuing irrigating until your input TDS of 300-350ppm 0.65EC to 0.75EC matches your run off. if your run off TDS is 700ppm or above you need to correct quickly. Do not flush with Ph water only unless directly afterwards you continue irrigating with a nutrient solution to restore the correct EC buffer in the substrate (by afterwards i mean directly ie within 30mins). plain water flushing completely removes the established buffer and will quickly lead to another deficiency especially if under high PAR and long day durations.
 
check out mulders chart of nutrient antagonisms - in this case it is mostly likely an over availability of Ca (accumulated in substrate) slowing down P uptake https://agradehydroponics.com/blogs/a-grade-news/nutrient-antagonism-which-nutrients-affect-others
hope it helps

You my friend, are a blessing. I got it dialed in finally. Part of it was me trying to find the right ppm to feed them daily. Cant go by instructions on labeling so I had to feel it put. I knew it had something to do with P and Ca / Mg. I do check my runoff ppm and flood my pots till runoff is near input. This has all been a first for me with LEDs, coco coir, and capsicum.

I kept feeding daily or at least with every watering. Ive started doing a hybrid of sorts (organic and botanicare). I reported to 1 gal fabric pots, once they recovered i topped them. My feeding schedule goes something like this (CNS17 bloom, CNS17 bloom, calmag and pure blend pro gro, pure blend compost tea with calmag + great white + fermented plant juice, aquarium water from my tank water changes. Just today I got them a watering of lactic acid bacteria serum and mild tea. All my feelings are adjust to ~350ppm and pH 5.9-6.3.

Apparently its working well!

Heres photos from todays watering. One plant is showing some purpling from anthocyanin. Its definitely not nute deficiency. Its otherwise very healthy and growing quickly.

I do a 16-8 light cycle. Light is about 590ppfd at 22 at ~ 215 watts from wall.

Im excited for my 4x8 gorilla tent setup. Going to get a lot of seeds germinated starting December under 315 cmh. Will do seedlings under mars sp150, stepping up to 315 cmh, then 2 on a light mover, then 3 x 315 cmh when they start maturing. One 4200k and 2 of the 3000k cmh.

Looking forward to it!

Thanks is again for the info!

 

[MGR]

they are looking healthy now mate, the purps you're seeing i get too under LED initially, a few outdoor 1-2hr sessions fix that quickly, likely the light makeup in the LED. you got some super tight nodes there, once you put the CMH on they start elongating abit more and start up the flowers. love the setup type with CMH on movers and 1x2 setup on 4.5K vs 2x3K, that spectrum will kick ass. If your're using that much light and ill assume the final container size will increase in ratio, i'd suggest stem clamps attached to the tent top as the fruit builds as the weight will increase to stress point and will need support.  

 

[GetLost]

. Ok thanks for that. I was wondering if I would need to trellis. Will be ready for that.

I’ll update once I get it all setup.

Cheers

 

[Tybo]

Wow, all that to grow peppers!  
 
Seriously though, that is some dedication to details.

 

[MGR]

Looking forward to seeing the setup, great white is excellent, it can really get things moving. In terms of weight these guys are a bonnet cross yellow hab i have in coco outdoors at the moment and ive had to strap the main stem to the sides of the pot to stop leaning from the weight. The tops are now starting to sag from the pod load as well. also Ive found with coco outdoors is that the canopy gets so big compared to the pot size that wind becomes a major issue as gusts can literally pick the plant up and dump it over due to the top weight. good problem to have tho means they are loaded      

 

[GetLost]

Looking forward to seeing the setup, great white is excellent, it can really get things moving. In terms of weight these guys are a bonnet cross yellow hab i have in coco outdoors at the moment and ive had to strap the main stem to the sides of the pot to stop leaning from the weight. The tops are now starting to sag from the pod load as well. also Ive found with coco outdoors is that the canopy gets so big compared to the pot size that wind becomes a major issue as gusts can literally pick the plant up and dump it over due to the top weight. good problem to have tho means they are loaded      

20191128_072247.jpg

20191128_072348.jpg

Looking awesome! Makes me excited to get some trees going lol.

Tent arrived today. Got it setup and tweaking things now to get stability. Really solid tent! Not sure how but I managed to setup all by myself with exception of getting the body started. Its heavy duty.

I think I will probably only need 2 lights on a mover rather than 3, but can always order another. My local store gave me a good deal on 2.

Laid foam board and sheathing down on concrete under the tent to insulate roots. Pretty cheap too. $20 at HD.

Its a project and I havent even germinate my seeds yet unfortunately.

 

[MGR]

Nice!, that tent is wicked, great idea on the foam board, that will help keep things more stable down below

 

[GetLost]

Just a little update. Moved the reapers under the cmh in the tent and an outdoor Thai chili that spent more days in the cold than I would have liked, but its still kicking.

The plants responded very positive to the cmh coming from led. Its damn bright at 24. At 41-42k lux or about 750 ppfd. As such I cut the duration back a little from 16 to 15 hours.

The bulb is a Phillips elite 942. 4200k bulb. I have a 3100k on the other side for the Thai chili so theres a little overlap.

Germinating my seed orders too so Ill be trying to get this tent filled with peppers.

Not bad for a few days growth between the last photo and this one.

I think Im the future with coco I will prefer a drip system drain to waste. Hand watering and feeding daily is tedious.

 

[GetLost]

Just thought Id update here. Been continually feeding daily and got them under the cmh doing great. Way better growth than led in my experience. One 4200k Phillips and one 3100k Phillips. Got them at around 750ppfd 15 hours a day.

Repotted to #7 fabric pots yesterday. Today I have my first sign of flowering on both plants. I should not have to repot them again until spring when they will get planted in the ground.

Also germinated all my other pepper seeds to get an early start for next year. Ill hopefully have mature plants to put out in the garden and end up with some large heavy producing plants.

 

[The_NorthEast_ChileMan]

 

[solid7]

got them under the cmh doing great. Way better growth than led in my experience. One 4200k Phillips and one 3100k Phillips.

In general terms, probably that CMH is the better light source - although later generations of LED are so cheap, and so much improved, that I'd love to see a side by side grow out.  You can purchase a ton of horsepower, and run it longer, for far less expense, with less heat and maintenance, with newer generation LEDs.  The cheap light market has gotten so competitive, that you can even buy low priced models with high quality components. (I saw a light that had samsung boards, and a Meanwell power supply - of which I paid 2/3 the price of the light for, alone, for a home electronics project)
.
My only question would be, are you keeping a running total of your expenses?  Between your feedings and your electricity bill, I think you're going to have some pretty expensive peppers.

 

[solid7]

got them under the cmh doing great. Way better growth than led in my experience. One 4200k Phillips and one 3100k Phillips.

In general terms, probably that CMH is the better light source - although later generations of LED are so cheap, and so much improved, that I'd love to see a side by side grow out.  You can purchase a ton of horsepower, and run it longer, for far less expense, with less heat and maintenance, with newer generation LEDs.  The cheap light market has gotten so competitive, that you can even buy low priced models with high quality components. (I saw a light that had samsung boards, and a Meanwell power supply - of which I paid 2/3 the price of the light for, alone, for a home electronics project)
.
My only question would be, are you keeping a running total of your expenses?  Between your feedings and your electricity bill, I think you're going to have some pretty expensive peppers.