Pure Vs. Hybrid

Pepperhead

Pepperhead

This debate started on someone's topic, and I feel it is worth discussing, but didn't want to hijack someone else's thread.  So let's get it out here.
 
There are those who believe that crossing different varieties will lead to the loss of older strains of peppers as the gene pool is diluted.  This is probably true, and I admire those who would try to grow in isolation to preserve original strains.  It's a worthy goal.
I have the opinion that there are very few of the original strains left that are uncrossed.  Unless your chilis were picked in the wild and isolated by you there is no guarantee of any pure strain.  Probably what some consider pure, was already crossed some time in the past anyway.  If you want to experiment with your peppers and make a crazy hybrid, than no one should put you down for it.  They are your plants, nature allows that they can be crossed, so do with them what you will. 
 
You can argue business ethics of selling crazy hyped hybrids, but that is a seperate discussion.  I and most of us are just hobby growers.  I love to experiment.  I think it's fun and can be educational.  If you are upset that I am following a different path with my grow than you are, too bad.  You have a right to your opinion, and I hope you will state your case here.
 
Could be easily compared to dog breeding, they all started with wolves, now we still have wolves, and official breeds that are made very similar to peppers f1-f10 etc etc before they are stable and recognized


And then you got your typical heinz 57, occasionally get the perfect one, but may never be repeated again no matter how hard you try
 
pepperdan said:
Could be easily compared to dog breeding, they all started with wolves, now we still have wolves, and official breeds that are made very similar to peppers f1-f10 etc etc before they are stable and recognized


And then you got your typical heinz 57, occasionally get the perfect one, but may never be repeated again no matter how hard you try
Click to expand...
I've always thought the dog breeding comparison was apt.  The difference is, with peppers you don't have shelters full of vegetables waiting to be euthanized. :)
 
I have a complete different view not starting an argument just stating my opinion. I personally believe that they should be isolated. If you want to cross then cross but you should also isolate strains. It's difficult to even find some strains available that were available 5 years ago in their original state.
Smokemaster has personal cases of losing some of his stuff
 
Wild, heirloom, or hybrid, IMO they all have there uses, it's the GMO's I wish they never breed.  I like old heirloom strains but there's resins people breed new strains up mostly to improve something that the breeder thinks is lacking, or as to the supper hots to make them even hotter!  I think were lucky with most plants, they can be grown some what easy, it's Animals that saving old strains are really needed as to many are lost as new ones are made and the old ones lose out.    
 
I love creating and that spills into my pepper hobby. I won't be making any money off my hybrids. I'm also fascinated by genetics, and pepper breeding allows me to explore this. I also want to improve existing varieties. Some are terrible producers like Pimenta da Neydes and bhut jolokias. The bhut jolokia most likely has a self-comparability issue causing its low yields. Cross that with another naga such as the naga morich and you will improve the yield and can work to preserve bhut characteristics through selection.

Last year I intentionally crossed a 7 pot Jonah with a pimenta da neyde. I didn't regrow the pimenta da neyde, because its yields are horrible.

Here is the result of the F1:

Early pic (quality is better since my other pic was taken in the evening)
 
9404187294_84c8510822_c.jpg

 
 
The pic with them more developed taken in the evening:
 
9424129819_f1d74a6042_c.jpg

 
 
I love the flavor of both of them. Not sure why they gave a weird shape like this, but it's interesting. I don't know how hot or what they taste like yet. I'm going to wait and see if they turn red.
 
 
I also think we have all these amazing flavors with the superhots that hardly anyone can enjoy, which makes me want to make breeds that are significantly less hot but retain the flavor. It sucks for me that I cannot share any of these cool superhots with anyone except one of my cousins, because they are too hot.
 
 
I think both purity (unless the variety needs genetic improvement like the bhut jolokia and pimenta da neyde) and hybrids are important. My pepper project is primarily hybridization, but I think people who make keeping varieties pure their project are contributing just as much to the chilehead community. New and old varieties are fun. I would miss varieties becoming impure and be bored if we didn't create new varieties. After I create a hybrid bhut jolokia with another naga type, I will stop growing them. The yield just sucks.
 
To me the problem these days is that it's gotten to an Either Or situation for a lot of people.

People won't isolate a few of the pure mother plants to continue the variety.

I don't see it as an either or thing.

Isolate a couple buds for pure seed AND make your crosses.

These days 99% of the trade seeds I get are super hot crosses even though the trade was for anything else totally different.

Then all the stuff that ARE heinze 57 that might look pure but aren't,then are crossed and named whatever eventually down the line.
Usually it's a heinze 57 X pure or both are crosses to begin with.The pods just look like they should at the time.

Nothing wrong with crosses,whatever floats your boat.

I just think that if you do all the work required to get a stable Hybrid,you can also isolate a few buds from the mother plants,assuming the really are pure,to keep them around.

I get better stuff these days,as far as pure LOOKING plants these days from market or landrace stuff from the country of origin(Market pods etc.).

I get frustrated when I'm thinking I have a specific Annuum,Frutescense or whatever growing ,that i REALLY wanted and it turns out to be a super hot cross.
I don't isolate my SASBE seeds but I do put Chinense separated from the Baccatuums and Baccatums separate from the Annuums etc.
No they all don't grow true but a large portion seem to.

I grow a lot of plants indoors in isolation in 4-5 inch pots until I get a couple pods.
Then they go outside to play with the birds and bees.

1 or 2 pods is all I need for keeping my seed collection true and fresh.

It's just getting very hard to keep my collection fresh these days.

A LOT of vendors don't sell stuff that used to be common.
I guess there isn't any $ in it anymore.

I'm not a purist by any means,it's just that I have 5000+ seed packs in my collection and I can't keep them fresh anymore.
I have a limited growing space and have to find the older seeds each year to grow out.
I end up not being able to fit in other varieties I'd like to grow out that year too.
I used to grow 800 plants a season,in a year I could grow out 1600 plants(year round).
Now I have space for only 100 plants.
I used to buy fresh seeds from vendors to replace stuff I couldn't grow every couple of seasons.
Now the vendors are selling the buck a seed stuff mostly.

Ya,When I first started growing Chiles,I couldn't decide what to grow...
I decided to grow them ALL...

Not easy to do these days when everything is a cross that vendors sell,for the most part.
ADD in Customs and I'm pretty much screwed for a LOT of varieties.

I pretty much stopped trading anymore.
I need to keep my collection pure and fresh,IF I can.
Keep it from getting smaller because I have the only pure seeds I can find for whatever.

I guess I need to win the lottery so I can build some greenhouses and start my own seed company.
Go around the world collecting seeds to grow. :)
I bet that will happen just after hell freezes over...
 
Trying to maintain purity has supposedly been an issue for quite a while.
 
I've heard from a couple of old timers that in europe, say 50-100 years ago, farmers were only allowed to grow the pepper type known to their local area. The pepper was  named after that town/city/region. This was supposedly an attempt to maintain purity. And also for sweet pepper to remain sweet, and vice versa.
 
I'm sure these farmers were growing different types in their backyard plots though, so who knows how well that idea worked.
 
I have a few varieties from you Smokemaster. I got them from Bonnie's swap.

-peach bhut
-west Virginia pea
-texas black
-yellow bedder

I'm not sure what else. Anyway now that you mention that about your seed I'm gonna continue isolating those like you been doing.

, Walter
 
Dulac, it's interesting what you say about Bhut Jolokias being terrible producers (and also Pimenta da Neydes but I have only just planted those seeds)
 
I have three plants at work by a large windowsill, although they only get direct sun from 4pm onwards when I need to put the blinds down for a couple of hours. Two plants are Trinidad Scorpion Butch T and one is a Chocolate Bhut Jolokia. They are planted in small pots (Trinidad Scorpion in 5 litres, the Bhut Jolokia in a 4 litre) and havn't grown that large. One of the Trinidad Scorpions has given me 9 pods. The Chocolate Bhut Jolokia on the other hand is even more prolific and has given me 15 pods. The two prolific plants are now producing more flowers so I have harvested some fruit in order to hopefully encourage a new batch of fruit. I would have assumed that it was just a good position or something but the second Trinidad Scorpion at work has given me a single small pod as has all my other Trinidad Scorpions at home. The Chocolate Bhut Jolokias at home have also only been producing a very small number of pods as well.
 
This got me thinking that I should basically overwinter the productive plants, kill off the unproductive ones and grow some more from seed to replace them. It's possible that we do not have to cross them with other strains to make them more productive. I think after reading this thread I'll try to get non-crossed seeds when I have enough productive plants of the same strain.
 
Peach Bhuts were a 50/50 plant.
I think Aji Joe sent them to me.

They either grew true or red.
Both looked the same in pod shape.

I have a lot of both isolated and not isolated seeds for the others.
They might not be all isolated stuff.
I send out seeds to several seed swaps and don't remember who I sent what to.
Probably sent some of each to them all.

I hope yours grow true.
I do try and spread the heat when I can.

My post isn't meant to say crosses are bad.

Just keep the stuff you used in your crosses alive if you can.

Some people take my post/posts as anti cross in general.

All I'm trying to say is don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Too many people think like the last post on the other thread.
Screw everything but my cross...
Anyone who suggests saving a few seeds from the parent plant is an idiot or?

Saving varieties IS important but there is nothing wrong with controlled crossing stuff.

You need the pure stuff to get your crosses in general.
The more crossed the parent plants are the more it takes to get something stable,if you even want stable stuff.
 
smokemaster said:
Saving varieties IS important but there is nothing wrong with controlled crossing stuff.

You need the pure stuff to get your crosses in general.
The more crossed the parent plants are the more it takes to get something stable,if you even want stable stuff.
Click to expand...
 
+1
 
Also preserving means not only storing seeds but keeping track of many observations about a variety so in the future you can recognize if you are growing the real deal. Any breeding/crossing should be controlled and all 'new' varieties should be sold with some information on the original parents imho.
Diversity is what makes nature wonderful, the big seed companies want to convince you otherwise...
 
Cya
 
Datil
 
I have an Orange Habanero De Arbol that I crossed with An Aji red.

I think the tree hab is a ChinenseXBaccatum.

I wanted red pods with the gold speck buds.

I sent seeds to Chris and it crossed with Possibly a Yellow Scorpion.
I now have a Baccatum bud(gold specks) with Scorpion looking pods.
Red pods that look like Scorpions but are Baccatums.

Like I said,crosses aren't all bad.

The triple X is cool.

I have the original plant still.

So far only the seeds from them have grown true once(F1?) that I know of.
I never tried F2 or ? seeds.
I will when I have room to isolate the plant one of these days.
Probably a 1 trick pony though.
When the seeds from the original plant run out and the original plant dies I think it's all she wrote.
Original plant has buds on it now,not in isolation...

I have pure seeds from Habanero De Arbol,Aji Red and Yellow scorpion.
In a million years I might get the same cross if I try. LOL
 
Skinty said:
Dulac, it's interesting what you say about Bhut Jolokias being terrible producers (and also Pimenta da Neydes but I have only just planted those seeds)
 
I have three plants at work by a large windowsill, although they only get direct sun from 4pm onwards when I need to put the blinds down for a couple of hours. Two plants are Trinidad Scorpion Butch T and one is a Chocolate Bhut Jolokia. They are planted in small pots (Trinidad Scorpion in 5 litres, the Bhut Jolokia in a 4 litre) and havn't grown that large. One of the Trinidad Scorpions has given me 9 pods. The Chocolate Bhut Jolokia on the other hand is even more prolific and has given me 15 pods. The two prolific plants are now producing more flowers so I have harvested some fruit in order to hopefully encourage a new batch of fruit. I would have assumed that it was just a good position or something but the second Trinidad Scorpion at work has given me a single small pod as has all my other Trinidad Scorpions at home. The Chocolate Bhut Jolokias at home have also only been producing a very small number of pods as well.
 
This got me thinking that I should basically overwinter the productive plants, kill off the unproductive ones and grow some more from seed to replace them. It's possible that we do not have to cross them with other strains to make them more productive. I think after reading this thread I'll try to get non-crossed seeds when I have enough productive plants of the same strain.
Click to expand...
 
 
The chocolate bhut jolokia is a cross that seems to be stable and doesn't have the self-incompatibility genetic problem. A good trait to look for is productivity. However, with the regular bhut jolokia, we will not get rid of its genetic problem without crossing it. The pimenta da neyde will also never be prolific without crossing it. It's the lowest producing pepper plant I've ever seen.
 
technically there is no "pure" strain in the way people understand it. most living things constantly evolve and cross breed, even humans are not "pure", many have caveman genes in them. there are only true strains that closely resemble the standard of the variety. some traits from the past or mutations can still come up.

heirlooms are just cross and mutations from a long time ago, is it worth keeping? yes, does it mean we shouldn't create new varieties? no
 
I think one of the biggest considerations many people take into account regarding preservation of isolated, "land-race" genetics is the fact that, as hyridization permutates there is a genetic bottlenecking, where there is a low amount of genetic variation.  This effect is dangerous because of several factors, not least of which is the uniformity everything begins to have (ie everything looks, smells and tastes similar or the same..... all of the qualities are alike and there is no novelty).  Another major concern would be that a ceratin pathogen could develop, which the new hybrids could not handle, but their great great grandparents could (the genes were selected out in favor of other phenotypic expressions).  Similarly, a change in conditions (climate) may not favor the ubiquitous distribution of the similar genes (ie a lower diversity of geneitcs meeting natural slection due to environmental pressures has a lower chance to produce viable offspring (darwinian fitness or adaptability).  Also... there is an effect of hybridization wherein the inbreeding of an F1 generation, without back-crossing to the parents, will result in a diminishingly productive population.  So that, if left uncontrolled, the genetic drift of that hybrids lineage will produce funky, unfit phenotypes.   In other words, hybrids will perform very well in the first generation, but quickly become messed up if thye are not stabilized through backcrossing to the parents. 
 
So its actually an ecological concern...  this is a big issue with vitrually every crop around the world... escpecially in third world countries where there is a real push to preserve the "land-race" genetics for all of the concerns I've mentioned.  Just some sutff I learned from my plants and soil science course at UK.  Some of it may be slightly inaccurate... but the point of it was contemporary science in 09... im a little fuzzy XD
 
Noah Yates said:
Also... there is an effect of hybridization wherein the inbreeding of an F1 generation, without back-crossing to the parents, will result in a diminishingly productive population.
Click to expand...
I don't think that applies to peppers or other self-pollinating plants. They are inbreeding all the time. If you backcross it with an F1 generation it will still inbreed. I don't understand why people think it's a good idea to backcross peppers with the F1 generation unless there is a trait the're seeking that isn't coming out further down the line.

Edit: If you want to breed against diseases etc. it's a good idea to cross with wild varieties. Most of the chiles we use are stable hybrids. Hybridization can also work in the favor of disease resistance etc. I don't see a problem with pure lines being affected to be honest. Perhaps my experience is an exception.
 
smokemaster said:
Too many people think like the last post on the other thread.
Screw everything but my cross...
Anyone who suggests saving a few seeds from the parent plant is an idiot or?
 
Click to expand...
 
Not sure who you're referring to here.  Of the people I've seen crossing peppers, I don't know anyone who doesn't also grow some non-crossed varieties.  Like what someone else said before, whatever floats your boat.
 
Some people like superhots, some people like wilds, why waste time judging what others want to do?  If you want to grow 100+ varieties that no one wants to buy, who am I to judge?  IMHO there are people who use peppers in their native cuisine (Mexico, China, etc.) and then there are people like us, collectors and growers and catalogers, and for us, there is no consensus on why we're doing this so a laissez faire seems best, at least for your own peace of mind, because you can't force people anyway.
 
In the other post some one said they don't care about the plants they use in their cross-toss them out...That was when I suggested isolating a few buds to get seeds from the Supposed pure stuff used in the cross...

I only grow peppers for my own use.Don't sell seeds or plants.

I'm the one who also said whatever floats your boat AND don't throw the baby out with the bath water. :)

My point the whole time has been to save pure varieties AND make your cross.

Can't know what you crossed if you don't know what the mother plants really are.

I see too many varieties that were common a few years back hard to find or non existent these days.

Hybrids rule the market.
An example is Jalapenos for one.
Different landrace varieties are being lost in favor of Monsanto Hybrids etc.

Same thing seems to be going on with every kind of pepper lately.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top