breeding Question about a quote I found on parental influence in crosses

[internationalfish]

This random website says:
 

Remember that the mother plant is usually the one that passes on the majority of the new pepper’s qualities. So if you want a hotter pepper, make your ghost pepper the mother plant.

 
I'm curious about this, because I haven't seen it referenced anywhere else... is it even vaguely true?
 
I know in mammals there are some differences in which genes X and Y chromosomes can carry, but I have no idea whether there are similar differences in plants. I may just not have searched effectively, but I haven't found any info about this.
 
Anyone have input?

 

[rghm1u20]

There was a topic about crosses these days, and somebody put a link, I remember no more the topic exactly, however here again the link, maybe it helps
 
http://www.thechileman.org/guide_crossing_peppers.php
 

 

[SpeakPolish]

Hundred percent false. Peppers do not have sex chromosomes so there are no sex linked traits, therefore the mother does bat crap. Dominant and more wild traits are he ones that are passed on.

 

[The_NorthEast_ChileMan]

`

This random website says:
 
Anyone have input?

`
The author of that article, Martin Smazenko, wrote that Blog for the Mild to Wild Pepper & Herb Co. and I think it lacking in context. A very thorough in what happens in a cross is this three page article, Tomato Gene Basics, (Remember, tomatoes and peppers are the same Family, Solanaceae.).

Next are the parts of a pepper flower, where the female parts and male parts are located, note the male part with pollen are in the Anther and the seeds in the Ovary...
 

 
`
Then a very detailed illustration of how to perform a cross, Crossing and Breeding Chile Peppers, using the Cayenne Pistil/Stigma as the female and pollen from the Stamens of the Jalapeno flower.
 
After this introduction, on to the OP's question, "I'm curious about this, because I haven't seen it referenced anywhere else... is it even vaguely true?". While this blanket statement is true:
 

Hundred percent false. Peppers do not have sex chromosomes so there are no sex linked traits, therefore the mother does bat crap. Dominant and more wild traits are he ones that are passed on.

 
Cannot the chosen mother plant, female/ovary, have  the dominant trait? In the tomato article above the author chose the "regular leaf" as dominant but could he not have chosen the "potato leaf"? And in his treatise, the chart near the top of page two reports the ratio of influence each has in the F1 plant/seed, 50/50. When each generation of successfully grown isolated plants, the dominant/homozygous gene and recessive/homozygous genes become 50/50 in ALL seeds. Basically, if you are calling the plant that you use as the Ovary of as the "mother" and has the dominant gene, let's say round instead of elongated fruit, then the "the mother does bat crap" doesn't hold water. But saying  "Remember that the mother plant is usually the one that passes on the majority of the new pepper's qualities."  a misnomer also.

So my input is it all depends on how you're using/interpreting the words of the author. And lastly, being an informed reader of what's posted in so many places on the net will help you see what's:
 

 
Hope this helps!
NECM

`

 

[SpeakPolish]

`
`
The author of that article, Martin Smazenko, wrote that Blog for the Mild to Wild Pepper & Herb Co. and I think it lacking in context. A very thorough in what happens in a cross is this three page article, Tomato Gene Basics, (Remember, tomatoes and peppers are the same Family, Solanaceae.).

Next are the parts of a pepper flower, where the female parts and male parts are located, note the male part with pollen are in the Anther and the seeds in the Ovary...
 

 
`
Then a very detailed illustration of how to perform a cross, Crossing and Breeding Chile Peppers, using the Cayenne Pistil/Stigma as the female and pollen from the Stamens of the Jalapeno flower.
 
After this introduction, on to the OP's question, "I'm curious about this, because I haven't seen it referenced anywhere else... is it even vaguely true?". While this blanket statement is true:
 
 
Cannot the chosen mother plant, female/ovary, have  the dominant trait? In the tomato article above the author chose the "regular leaf" as dominant but could he not have chosen the "potato leaf"? And in his treatise, the chart near the top of page two reports the ratio of influence each has in the F1 plant/seed, 50/50. When each generation of successfully grown isolated plants, the dominant/homozygous gene and recessive/homozygous genes become 50/50 in ALL seeds. Basically, if you are calling the plant that you use as the Ovary of as the "mother" and has the dominant gene, let's say round instead of elongated fruit, then the "the mother does bat crap" doesn't hold water. But saying  "Remember that the mother plant is usually the one that passes on the majority of the new pepper's qualities."  a misnomer also.

So my input is it all depends on how you're using/interpreting the words of the author. And lastly, being an informed reader of what's posted in so many places on the net will help you see what's:
 

 
Hope this helps!
NECM

`

Sorry, I phrased that wrong. There are no sex linked traits so fertilization does not put a preference on the mother. Unless a pepper has a different ploidy level then both the parents will give equally to their offspring. Though only the dominant traits would show in F1.

 

[internationalfish]

There are no sex linked traits... Unless a pepper has a different ploidy level then both the parents will give equally to their offspring.

 
The linked guide to crossing peppers has a chart that's very common: It illustrates hybrid viability by species and parentage, and that chart isn't balanced.
 
If that's a result of different ploidy between species, it looks like there's also a difference in the way fertilization happens depending on which plant is the 'mother' and which is the 'father:'
 
chinense x praetermissum: Fruits/seeds set, but F1 seeds inviable
praetermissum x chinense: F1 hybrids germinate normally
 
Given that difference, it seems like "Unless a pepper has a different ploidy level then both the parents will give equally to their offspring" is true in the sense that both will contribute the same number of chromosomes, but it seems to me this suggests that two plants of the same species (or different species with the same ploidy) may still combine in different ways depending on which plant is the 'mother' and which the 'father.'
 
Is this just a common knowledge thing that I wasn't aware of, or is it incorrect?

 

[SpeakPolish]

 
The linked guide to crossing peppers has a chart that's very common: It illustrates hybrid viability by species and parentage, and that chart isn't balanced.
 
If that's a result of different ploidy between species, it looks like there's also a difference in the way fertilization happens depending on which plant is the 'mother' and which is the 'father:'
 
chinense x praetermissum: Fruits/seeds set, but F1 seeds inviable
praetermissum x chinense: F1 hybrids germinate normally
 
Given that difference, it seems like "Unless a pepper has a different ploidy level then both the parents will give equally to their offspring" is true in the sense that both will contribute the same number of chromosomes, but it seems to me this suggests that two plants of the same species (or different species with the same ploidy) may still combine in different ways depending on which plant is the 'mother' and which the 'father.'
 
Is this just a common knowledge thing that I wasn't aware of, or is it incorrect?

Well it is similar to how you and your siblings are different. Fertilization will almost always be different even if it has the same parents.

 

[CraftyFox]

Well it is similar to how you and your siblings are different. Fertilization will almost always be different even if it has the same parents.

I think you are trying to make simple what is a little more complex. The mother most definitely makes some difference or the breeding results would be the same, no?

Has anyone found this chart expanded, where someone experimented with Pubescens as a Mother plant? Seems to beg for it.. Also hard to believe no one has tried Annum with Pubescens, either way.

 

[internationalfish]

Well it is similar to how you and your siblings are different. Fertilization will almost always be different even if it has the same parents.

 
Well, my sister and I are extremely different because we're both adopted. But yeah, I get it.
 
A single-species couple with a single sex each producing children who express different gene combinations, though, is fundamentally different from two individuals from different species reproducing in two different ways, i.e. where either one can be the 'mother.'
 
The reason for the initial question was to try and limit the growing I need to do when working on an inter-species hybrid: If there isn't likely to be a significant difference between the variety/nature of genetic expression depending on which plant is the mother, then there's not much reason for me to grow out both a x b and b x a. Guess I should've just asked that directly.
 

Has anyone found this chart expanded, where someone experimented with Pubescens as a Mother plant? Seems to beg for it.. Also hard to believe no one has tried Annum with Pubescens, either way.

 
I've seen it mentioned that the dashes on that chart aren't really clear; they may mean those crosses weren't attempted, or they may mean they weren't viable/didn't take at all. I do think it'd be worth trying them out, though.

 

[CaneDog]

There is a reason to grow out A x B and B x A, particularly with interspecific crosses, because of incompatibility barriers, which may make it more difficult or not possible to cross in one direction what could be more easily done in the other.  Also, that is an old chart and there have been many intervening studies since, though you have to piece them together, that provide better/more complete information.

 

[internationalfish]

There is a reason to grow out A x B and B X A, particularly with interspecific crosses, because of incompatibility barriers, which may make it more difficult a not possible to cross in one direction what could be more easily done in the other.

 
If this is only potential issue, though, it seems to me it would make sense to just try the most compatible cross (or just pick one if they're both about the same). Why attempt b x a if you know a x b is likely to have the same or better chance of working?
 
I'm looking at a couple of chinense-annuum hybrids, and either way they're listed as partially fertile. I don't really want to double the work involved to grow in both directions unless there's a reason other than fertility rates.

 

[CaneDog]

Sure, the reason would be you don't necessarily know which direction is more likely or better.  Take the example of a postzygotic barrier yielding seed infertility. You do your cross, watch it set, grow it out, cut the seeds out before turning the F1 into a pepper popper, then you don't know you failed until the seeds don't germ after multiple attempts.  If you ran it both ways, and planted both, you'd not have wasted a generation because you'd have the other growing.  Other post-zygotic barriers could cause FTT.  In that case, you'd just have a crappy F1 that might have been a thriving and intriguing combination the other direction.  Just my thoughts. No big expertise here.
 
EDIT - Going interspecific with Chinense x Annuum it's definitely a factor you want to consider.

 

[internationalfish]

OK, makes sense.

 

[Max Nihil]

Diallel crosses are used frequently because A x B is frequently distinct from B x A and not just in terms of crosses between species where one direction of the cross produces fertile seeds and the other doesn't.

This is true for a great many types of plants.

I've grown out many cacti hybrids where the exact same crosses of the same plants with the parentage reversed ended up resulting in distinct populations that shared traits but nevertheless had differences that were significant in terms of nearly all involved traits.

We learn in school that because of genetics AxB should be the same as BxA but then when we get out into the world we learn that the plants don't care what we think we know and are perfectly willing to prove us wrong.

Beware of assuming the plants know and will follow the rules.

For example you may read that 'frut X chin' will not work and 'chin x fruit' will when the truth is that some crosses work and others don't and that reality doesn't lend itself to absolutes.

If you are curious if a cross will or won't succeed the best thing to do is try it because the plants simply do not care what our rules for them are.

The further into this rabbit hole you go the more you will likely come to realize this.

In my experience AxB and BxA are usually distinct as a rule, rather than the exception... but remember the plants don't care and our opinions and experiences don't change that.

 

[acs1]

..

 

[Max Nihil]

result... Now if I could just figure out how to get a Fatalii as big as a football...

I'm glad I'm far from the only mad scientist around these parts.