chinense Reaper / Primo and Trinidad Scorp / Butch T

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

Please lets leave out the personal opinions and ethics that might be involved and lets focus on science and logic.  Mr. Butch Taylor took a tiny segment of the dna that we call Trinidad Scorpion and refined it.  As a result, we have what most people consider a pepper separate from the Trinidad Scorpion.

If we speculate that the Carolina Reaper is a renamed Primo, don't we have to assume the Reaper is a very narrow segment of Primo DNA the way Butch T is a very narrow segment of Trinidad Scorpion DNA? 

I ask because I have noticed some seedmen listing the two peppers as the same thing.  Seems odd because I have noted that although they do look similiar, Primo tends to produce larger pods with more variance the same way Trinidad Scorpion seems to produce more variance than Butch T.

Ye ye, why am I shopping for seeds in July.  Because I am a frigging addict.
 
From my sauce tasting experience, I can confirm that the Reaper and Primo taste very simmilar and hit in a similar way but they definitely don't seem the same to me. The Reaper hits fast for a super and grows at a decent speed to an increadible long lasting heat. The Primo hits faster and grows at an insane rate. It had me terrified the first time I tried it. It feels like some kind of ultra-Reaper but then just cuts off abruptly and slowly dies down. Its peak and the time for which it lasts did not seem nearly as high, though it's still hotter than a lot of other supers. Nor are the flavours quite identical and the Reaper comes in much sourer.
 
As for the Reaper being to the Primo what the Butch T is to the Scorpion, assuming the THP theories on the peppers are correct, that seems like a decent conclusion. However, the Butch T is not its own pepper type.
The full name of the Butch T is the "Trinidad Scorpion Butch T Strain", just as you also have the "Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Strain" and the original Trinidad Scorpion from which both were bred.
Smoking Ed has not named his plant the "7-Pot Primo Reaper Strain" so, if it is infact a Primo offshoot, this is the horticultural equivalent of plagarism through blatant disregard for refferencing.
 
Whether the two plants are actually related or just rather similar, however, I cannot say and the "genetic tests" to "prove" it displayed on this site were merely capsaicinoid level tests that seemed to suggest non-relation.
 
spicefreak, on the naming thing: - If- the theories are right I agree.  I dont know that they are or are not. Have not a clue.  But thank you for being one of the folk who can discuss the issue without all the drama.
 
One only has to look at the "Dorset Naga" Selective breeding does not a new pepper make. This kind of thing has been going on for eons in the canna world. Take a few bag seeds and walla, suddenly a new name. Always wondered about the Billy Biker Jalapeno and what genetics warranted a new name.
 
Voodoo 6 said:
One only has to look at the "Dorset Naga" Selective breeding does not a new pepper make. This kind of thing has been going on for eons in the canna world. Take a few bag seeds and walla, suddenly a new name. Always wondered about the Billy Biker Jalapeno and what genetics warranted a new name.
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I think a lot of the reason for this is there is no mandated central authority on the subject.  I kind of like that because I detest government regulations and adore voluntary agreements.  Would love to see the formation of an organization that creates standards folk can choose to follow with respect to naming convention.  Maybe it already exists and I havent heard about them.

It could really help order things.  Hell, I got five strains of Chocolate Bhutlah growing this year.  It is mainly for my own fun and enjoyment, curiosity and all.  But anytime I saw someone selling seed with a photo that looked different than others, I bought some.

Other Example: There is a white ghost pepper that stays white till it rots.  There is another that goes threw white into red before it rots.
 
 
Billy Biker Jalapeño still has Jalapeño in the name, making it clear what it is. Dorset Naga still contains Naga.
I think that system works but then things like the Naga Viper which is only 2/3 parts Naga, confuse matters somewhat.
 
The original Trinidad Scorpion originated from Vallew View Farms in Cockeysvllle, Maryland.  It's as simple as that.  It was out at least in 2003 and probably earlier.  Seeds were grown out of it and the pepper was spread among the chileheads worldwide in 2005/2006.  That was the start of the Trinidad Scorpion Butch T. :)  The owners of that local nursery must've obtained seed from Trinidad for this one and 8-9 others when taking trips over there.  Other varieties they sold (plants) were  Trinidad Coffee, Trinidad Coffee Purple, Brown Congo, and more.....I used to have the photo of their Trinidadian plant selection many years back, but can't find it anymore.
 
Chris
 
cmpman1974 said:
The original Trinidad Scorpion originated from Vallew View Farms in Cockeysvllle, Maryland.  It's as simple as that.  It was out at least in 2003 and probably earlier.  Seeds were grown out of it and the pepper was spread among the chileheads worldwide in 2005/2006.  That was the start of the Trinidad Scorpion Butch T. :)  The owners of that local nursery must've obtained seed from Trinidad for this one and 8-9 others when taking trips over there.  Other varieties they sold (plants) were  Trinidad Coffee, Trinidad Coffee Purple, Brown Congo, and more.....I used to have the photo of their Trinidadian plant selection many years back, but can't find it anymore.
 
Chris
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Thank you for posting this. It is great to understand the true history of where some of these peppers came from.
 
cmpman1974 said:
The original Trinidad Scorpion originated from Vallew View Farms in Cockeysvllle, Maryland.  It's as simple as that.
 
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I don't see that anyone disputed the original importer of Trinidad Scorpion.  But now that you mention it, please educate some more.  I had thought Trinidad Scorpion was initially made available in the US by Christopher Phillips, who got them from the Caribbean Agricultural Research Development Institute (CARDI) via a friend in Tobago.
 
I am thinking maybe both versions of the story and others are likely true.  I figure if CARDI was selling them, then there were probably many folk obtaining them.  Who knows which was first?  More so because so very many people were crazy addicted outside of commercial endeavors.  You know, getting them just to grow and sharing seeds with folk.

http://store.puckerbuttpeppercompany.com/products/cp-321-trinidad-scorpion-red-cardi
 
Voodoo 6 said:
I am wondering if that friend from CARDI is Wahid Ogeer of Trinidad?
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According to the link to Puckerbutt, Christopher got the seed from the same friend that provided Moruga Scorpion.  So I'd say there is a really good chance since Mr. Ogeer reportedly created the beast.  Curious to know if you follow him at all?  He is an amazing person.  Although most of my tiny farm's commercial efforts are in peppers currently, I am wildly interested in much of what Mr. Ogeer teaches on concentrated production / small scale farming with larger than normal production.

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news/2016-02-13/cut-out-middleman-help-people-earn?utm_content=bufferbc8e6&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
 
Taxonomy is humanity's attempt to (often arbitrarily) classify the infinite. I don't put much stock in any of it. After all, if we were to give a new name to everything that displayed a genetic difference, we would be naming individual plants, not varieties. Therefore, in an effort to simplify things, I have resolved to henceforth refer to all living organisms as "George."
 
Trying to understand how it originated in Maryland if the seeds came from Trinidad. Moruga is in Trinidad / Tobago. Can you please clarify what role Maryland had with this pepper? Thanks in advance.
 
cloudhand said:
cmpman1974 is Chris Phillips
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Now that is funny.  Here I am saying I think Mr. Phillips gets the credit to Mr. Phillips.  I take it the farm in Cockeysvllle, Maryland is his?

cmpman1974 / Chris Phillips, it is very nice to sort of meet you.  You are one of my folk heroes.
 
 
Voodoo 6 said:
Trying to understand how it originated in Maryland if the seeds came from Trinidad. Moruga is in Trinidad / Tobago. Can you please clarify what role Maryland had with this pepper? Thanks in advance.
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Original importer / person to make it available to we pepper heads in the West.  Chris Phillips is one of the folk who made lots and lots available via trade and gifting.  Never met him personally, but when learned of his medical challenges and the fund raiser I immediately put a link on the front page of the business site to the fund raiser to show respect.  Today folk seem focused on new crosses, but finding and establishing... not sure the term... uh, 'new to us' peppers can be as challenging.

Have some land races from Mexico that I am dying to grow out.  It is like looking into another culture via food.
 
I remember seeing his post in the past, and remember his generosity with trades as well. Hope those land race seeds work out well for ya AJ. Sure hope queequig drops in an adds one of his groovy music videos.
 
I think we are referring to two different peppers.  I originally brought in the Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Blend Red into the U.S. in 2006 when I obtained it from a friend in Tobago.  This is different than the pepper now labeled Trinidad Scorpion Butch T...totally different exterior, shape, flavor, etc.  I was providing the history on the Trinidad Scorpion Butch T.  The TS Moruga Blend Red from what I was told was most likely a test pepper in the fields at the University of West Indies (UWI).  I am sure they and CARDI work together in some ways.   I was not given a full history of the pepper back then.  I was just told this thing was crazy looking and hot as hell. :)   My friend sure wasn't kidding!!
 
Voodoo6, I'm saying a local nursery in Maryland somehow obtained super hots from Trinidad WAY before we all knew them and were selling live plants of Trinidad Scorpion and perhaps 7 Pot even.  They did not originate from Maryland, but that local nursery was responsible for obtaining / distributing a few strains.  Just giving credit where its due. :) 
 
Right on Chris, always good to hear the history behind a pepper. Sure appreciate you taking the time to share that.  :cheers:
 
Was wondering if anyone has ever extensively interviewed Troy Primeaux? Would love to pick his brain on the development stages of the Primo f1 thru f8.
 
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