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seeds Seed Types

[SIZE=10.5pt]Open Pollinated, Cross-pollinated, Heirloom, Heritage, Hybrid, This at first was like a foreign language to me, (sometimes still is) when I began lurking here on THP I would come across these words and consistently have to google their meaning. I have a strong feeling that I am not riding this bus by myself. In the past I have always went to the store and bought seeds every year for my garden planted them and never though twice. If you don’t live in the world of seed saving it can get a bit overwhelming. I have learned a lot here and through google searching that there are many benefits to seed saving, especially in the pepper world where seeds can get so expensive. Moving forward I will plan to save the majority of my seeds for years to come. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]For new gardeners and those new to saving seeds, before buying seeds you may want to read on: [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Seed—just in case ydk[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]A seed is a small "plant" in a covering called the seed coat, usually with some stored food.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Hybrid (Cross Pollinated)---[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]A hybrid is a result of breeding two plants (or animals) with different but distinctive desirable characteristics. The result generally is a more vigorous and healthier plant. Benefits to hybrids include:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]--Increased production than the parent plants[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]--larger plants[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]--Set fruit and ripen earlier, better uniformity on fruits[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]--Disease/pest resistance[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]The reasons for why goes on and on.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Best way to describe I think, is to think of a vegetable, let’s say…a carrot.  Was the carrot purple, red, or even yellow? Probably not, but we have all seen them.  Since hybrids have come available there have been vast changes in options of produce at our grocery stores today compared to those in of past decades. We can thank Hybrid breeders for that. Personally I love the choices. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]First generation hybrid crosses are known as first filial generation (or F1). Offspring from hybrid seeds will not produce the same type of plants as the parent. Hybrid seeds that are saved from hybrid parents at best will come true to the parent less than 30% of the time when planted again. Saved hybrid seeds can also turn out to be sterile, or if they do germinate, may produce plants that carry undesirable traits from prior generations. Most who choose to grow hybrids buy new seeds every year to continue desired crop. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]In order to achieve a desired plant most plant breeders will tease out favorable traits the same way farmers have for several millennia, through a painstaking cycle of trial-and-error. Promising hybrids are crossed with other promising hybrids and in some cases, with the parents again, through multiple generations in a process that can require years to produce desired results. As soon as a breeder comes up with a perfect hybrid, it’s time to stop cross-breeding and start self-pollinating the plant. This halts the process of DNA mixing and allows this sought-after plant, with its desirable assortment of genes that were so painstakingly assembled to be propagated intact. Voila, a purple carrot for the commercial market. So when people are talking on here about crossing a bhut jolokia with a scorpion for example, this is the method that most employ to achieve said results.[/SIZE]
 
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]GM Seeds (Genetically Modified) ---[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]GM seeds refer to plants created through the gene splicing techniques of biotechnology. In a way, it’s just another way of creating a hybrid plant. However, the difference is that the gene does not have to be from another plant. It can be from another species entirely to create those "desired" characteristics. With being from another species, gene transfer is only possible with human intervention, and there are many concerns about both the ethics and the results of the GM process. The long term effects of placing, let’s say, genes from an insect into a plant, have not been tested, and could have disastrous effects in the future. With human intervention come propriety rights and GM seeds have attached patents to protect them. A patent prevents a grower from saving and/or exchanging seeds, therefore strips the farmer/growers rights on seeds that they grew! The producer HAS to buy fresh seeds for every season. Plants grown from GM seeds are also known to contaminate open pollinated crops and in some cases has what is known as a “terminator gene”. This is a gene sequence to purposefully make the resulting F1 seed sterile. The “terminator gene” (developed by Delta and Pine, now owned by.....do I say it................MONSANTO) was never approved for sale, so there are no seeds available that contain this gene. For the most part most home gardening seed varieties are not GM seeds. These are reserved for the large farmer crops [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]when first introduced; GM seeds were believed to be the answer to world hunger. The argument was that by developing pesticide and herbicide resistant crops, farmers would be able to increase their yields and decrease their costs. This has not proven to be the case. Instead, bugs and weeds over time have become resistant to the chemicals, leading to increased use of herbicide, pesticide and more seeds. More spraying means more costs for the farmers, more damage to the environment and more health concerns.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] I[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]t also means more products have to be purchased from the GM seed producer. The companies that develop and patent GM seeds are the same companies that develop and patent the pesticides and herbicides (nice huh) to which these unique seeds are resistant. Monsanto is the largest seed company in the world and owns about 86% of GM seeds that are sown around the WORLD each and every year. Ok I think you get the point, let end here. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Non-Hybrid (Open Pollinated)---[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Open-pollinated plants are those that are left to mother nature for pollinating, this is achieved in one of two ways: either cross-pollination between two plants by means of wind, insects or birds, or by self-pollination means of a male and female flower parts contained within the same or separate flowers but on the same plant.  [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Seeds are often those that have been passed down by gardener to gardener for many generations. Seeds are, for the most part, usually very stable. They produce plants that grow true to the parent plants with very few differences. Interesting enough plants from open pollinated seeds can, over many generations have the ability to adapt to a specific local environment or growing conditions. The main benefit to Non-hybrid seeds is that they can be collected every year and stored for the next growing season. When collecting seed for future use it’s important that only save seeds from a ripe pod on a superior plant be saved for future use. Important to note that if you are growing non-hybrid, open pollinated plants for their seed, they must be kept well away from other plants of different varieties so they don’t cross-pollinate. [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Though peppers are self-pollinating, cross-pollination can occur. Insects, such as bees, or wind may deliver pollen from a sweet pepper to a hot pepper, and vice versa, if they are planted close together. The flavor and appearance of the pepper fruits is not immediately affected when this happens. The peppers develop normally and taste as they should, but seeds collected from these cross-pollinated vegetables may not produce plants and fruits of the same variety. You may find a sweet pepper has spicy notes or the color of the pepper is different than expected. We have all had the jalapeno that tastes like a bell and ones that have had the heat of a habanero.  The bummer is there is really no way to determine this when collecting seeds for next season.  [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]Distance is the most effective tool and insurance against cross-pollination. A distance of 250’ to 300’ between different types or varieties of plants will insure seed that comes true to the parent. A distance of about 600’ – 700’ will give a complete isolation and is only used for scientific or plant breeding purposes. Small scale growers that are growing to save seeds will sometimes isolate a flower until developed to prevent cross pollination and then will manually pollinate to ensure same crop in following seasons. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Heirloom/Heritage---[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]Heirloom or Heritage Seed is a type of non-hybrid seed. There is no general agreement on the use of the terms – heirloom or heritage – when describing seeds or plants. The term Heirloom is used more in the states and I think Heritage they use across the drink in the UK.  Heirloom seeds are always open pollinated and non-hybrid. (all heirlooms are OP, but not all OP are heirlooms). The term is generally used to describe seed or plant varieties that were grown prior to WWII – before what many consider the beginning of big industrial agriculture or “The Green Revolution”, the birth of mass farming. Some will argue and say that heirlooms produce a tastier, superior and more nutritious fruit or vegetable. I myself am one to argue with this philosophy.  This is why we create hybrids, for a tastier, hotter, better looking, and more nutritious fruit. Otherwise what is the point? Granted there are a lot of great heirloom tomatoes, but there are a great number of tasty hybrids as well.  Let’s take corn, only a few dull varieties back in the day. Now we have bazillion different choices when it comes to corn species, some extra sweet, some white, some checkered etc. Its all about preference.  Also it is important to note that just like OP plants; heirlooms are susceptible to cross pollination too.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]I hope this helps, I wanted to do this write up to teach myself and have something to reference back to if I needed, but I will pass on to you folks too. Feel free to correct me if something seems out of place.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Another fun fact:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Do you know about the Svalbard Seed Bank? AKA Doomsday Vault?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10.5pt]The vault is located 810 miles from the North Pole on the Norwegian island of Spitsbergen and houses seeds from every continent. The concept of the seed bank was to provide insurance against the loss of plant genetics in the case of catastrophic regional or global crises.
The Svalbard Seed Bank cost over $9,000,000 U.S. dollars to build and was funded entirely by Norway. (Thanks Norway!!!) The government of Norway and the Global Crop Diversity Trust provides for the day-to-day operational costs. The Global Crop Diversity Trust is an independent international organization. The seed vault has sci-fi state of the art security systems but no permanent staff.
[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]The vault opened officially on 26 February 2008.  Approximately 1.5 million distinct seed samples of agricultural crops are thought to exist. The variety and volume of seeds stored will depend on the number of countries participating – the facility has a capacity to conserve 4.5 million. [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Maybe we should send them some pepper seeds??[/SIZE]
 
thanks for putting together this read.
 
a few years ago, i had never heard of the term heirloom tomatoes until yakking with an elderly chinese lady at a big box store going over the standard offered tomatoes that i religiously(ignorantly) would buy every year. she gave me insight and sure enough i followed up with research, soon, there would be no way i would purchase another store bought F1 hybrid tomato plant, it would be heirlooms all the way. after years of sourcing/trading heirloom seeds i have been able to taste test and compare hybrids versus heirloom and sure enough, with the only exception of the sungold tomato, heirlooms just taste better.
 
and from further studying, i only grow purple carrots and soon my preferred onion with be the walking onion.
 
seed scarification would another add on for your post...............in the future.
 
good work.
 
Code:
Thanks for the write up.

And, if I may add, there is one thing that bothers me here at THP and a couple of other forums. People, when trading seeds will simply list or say OP. Well, most peppers and tomatoes are OPEN POLLINATED, it doesn't mean the blossoms were bagged or isolated.  If I’m sending or trading seeds I’ll say if the seeds were commercial, isolated or not isolated. OP doesn’t tell me anything. 

Peppers and tomatoes are open pollinated but they do cross and create hybrids, more so with peppers. People please, I'm not saying a pepper will cross with a tomato, I just wanted to make that clear. I wish more people would say, not isolated, isolated or commercial. I’d probably stay away from the non-isolated unless I was looking for something new and not what I traded for.
 
neoguy said:
Thanks for the write up.

And, if I may add, there is one thing that bothers me here at THP and a couple of other forums. People, when trading seeds will simply list or say OP. Well, most peppers and tomatoes are OPEN POLLINATED, it doesn't mean the blossoms were bagged or isolated.  If I’m sending or trading seeds I’ll say if the seeds were commercial, isolated or not isolated. OP doesn’t tell me anything.

Peppers and tomatoes are open pollinated but they do cross and create hybrids, more so with peppers. People please, I'm not saying a pepper will cross with a tomato, I just wanted to make that clear. I wish more people would say, not isolated, isolated or commercial. I’d probably stay away from the non-isolated unless I was looking for something new and not what I traded for.
Agreed, isolated/non-isolated would be a better way to go.  Gives grower a better understanding of exactly what they are getting.  I do think that near 100% of the time when someone says OP, they are refering to non-isolated or this is what should be assumed. But dont hesitate to ask person getting seeds from.  Although its not 100% gaurenteed, my experiances have been when non-isolated seeds are collected for sowing next season they grow true.
 
Heirlooms are generally better.
The majority of creating hybrids by big agra has much more to do with yeild, faster production, and shelf life than flavor and texture.
Gene spliced GMO plants don't really have enough long term data to show a pro or con yet, except in cases where pest resistance is the goal.
Just like in antibiotics, plant super pests are evolving and superweeds that can tolerate roundup herbicide are becomming a problem.
 
Here's a good discussion of some of the terminology:
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/28641-open-pollinated-do-you-know-what-it-means/
 
It is false that "gene transfer is only possible with human intervention." It happens naturally, in fact the evolution of complex life depended on it. Mitochondria and plastids (chloroplasts) are some examples. Google "horizontal/lateral gene transfer".
 
One method of inserting genetic material is to utilize a gene transfer mechanism present in naturally occuring bacteria that infect plants. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrobacterium_tumefaciens
 
Other goals of traditional breeding and GM:
- Drought tolerance
- Salt tolerance
- Reduced fertilizer requirements
- Increased nutritional content and bioavailability (Vitamin A producing and eventually nutritionally complete staple crops being a current GM goal)
 
I don't think traditional breeding is really pursued on a commercial scale any more.
 
Also isolation distance recommendations vary depending on the plant and presence of barrier crops. In many places I've read that a 1/4 mile separation is recommended for peppers, but the recommendations vary.
 
http://www.carolinafarmstewards.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/IsolationDistancesVer_1pt5.pdf
 
Oh man this is a great topic, and you really put everything together beautifully. Just... one thing ... :)
 
beerbreath81 said:
 
[SIZE=10.5pt]Best way to describe I think, is to think of a vegetable, let’s say…a carrot.  Was the carrot purple, red, or even yellow? Probably not, but we have all seen them.  Since hybrids have come [/SIZE]
 
nearly all carrots actually were purple before the 17th century
 
and
 
 
beerbreath81 said:
[SIZE=10.5pt]Let’s take corn, only a few dull varieties back in the day. Now we have bazillion different choices when it comes to corn species, some extra sweet, some white, some checkered etc[/SIZE]
 
there actually used to be far more varieties of corn, and in fact most vegetables, before the agricultural revolution of WWII
http://www.upworthy.com/we-used-to-have-307-kinds-of-corn-guess-how-many-are-left
 
 
the_more_you_know.jpeg
 
orangehero said:
It is false that "gene transfer is only possible with human intervention." It happens naturally, in fact the evolution of complex life depended on it. Mitochondria and plastids (chloroplasts) are some examples. Google "horizontal/lateral gene transfer".
I'm not sure I can say its complely false:
 
[SIZE=10pt]I didn’t want to go down this road but...[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Let it be know that, I am not a biology expert but according to my research:[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Quoting Wikipedia[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]--[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]Horizontal gene transfer (HGT) refers to the transfer of genes between organisms in a manner other than traditional reproduction.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]--[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]Plastids are thought to have originated from endosymbiotic cyanobacteria.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]
1115.jpg
[/SIZE]

 
[SIZE=10pt]In the usual process of reproduction, genes are transferred vertically from parent to offspring; a process that can occur only within same species or closely related species. With Horizontal gene transfer, are known to cross the species barrier. There are many potential routes for horizontal gene transfer to plants and animals. Transduction, (genetic material is carried from one cell to another by infectious viruses) is expected to be a main route as there are many viruses that infect plants and animals.  Bacterial pathogens which enter plant and animal cells may take up foreign genetic material and carry it into the cells, thus serving as avenues for horizontal gene transfer. There are really no barriers preventing the entry of foreign genetic material into the cells of probably any species on earth. Barriers that inhibit horizontal gene transfer usually operate after the foreign genetic material has entered the cell. Most foreign genetic material, like those found in food, are broken down and used as fuel for the plant or animal. Virus’s and genetic parasites have the ability to avoid being broken down, a virus generally contains genetic material wrapped in protective coat, when it enters the cell it can [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]either hi-jack the cell to make many more copies of itself, or it can jump directly into the cell’s genetic material. So, we can say that genetic parasites are vectors for horizontal gene transfer.  However, genetic parasites are limited by species barriers, so for example, pig viruses will infect pigs, but not human beings, and cauliflower viruses will not attack say, tomatoes. At least not yet.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Horizontal gene transfer is an established phenomenon. It has taken place in our evolutionary past and is continuing today. All the signs are that natural horizontal gene transfer is a regulated process, limited by species barriers and by mechanisms that break down foreign genetic material[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]Genetic engineering/genetic modification is basically a free for all, horizontal gene transfer where anything is possible.[/SIZE][SIZE=10pt] It [/SIZE][SIZE=10pt]allows genetic[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]material to be transferred between species that would/could never happen in nature. I.E…human genes can be transferred into pig,[/SIZE] [SIZE=10pt]sheep, fish and bacteria; and spider silk genes end up in goats.  [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]This is what was intended when talking about GM seeds, I said [/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt]being from another species, gene transfer is only possible with human intervention”[/SIZE][SIZE=10.5pt] I did read up on horizontal gene transfer but chose to omit it to avoid going down this road. I stand by my previous statement in that. For the purposes of this article I feel it is correct.  [/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=10pt]P.S.---silk milk, I thought this was funny[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMNv7qevNIc[/SIZE]
gourdmaster said:
Oh man this is a great topic, and you really put everything together beautifully. Just... one thing ... :)
 
 
nearly all carrots actually were purple before the 17th century---Damn it, I knew someone would call me on that. I was aware, it was just the first thing that came to mind for laimens terms.
 
 
there actually used to be far more varieties of corn, and in fact most vegetables, before the agricultural revolution of WWII
http://www.upworthy.com/we-used-to-have-307-kinds-of-corn-guess-how-many-are-left
 
---I wouldnt use your link, because of her other publishings....
http://www.upworthy.com/sara-critchfield
but Nat Geo chart seems reputable, was not aware of this good call.
 
Everything you posted confirms that your statement is false. A bacterium is a different species. Natural Agrobacterium tumefasciens infection is an example of one species, a bacterium, transferring genetic material to another species, grapes for example.
 
orangehero said:
 
Other goals of traditional breeding and GM:
- Drought tolerance
- Salt tolerance
- Reduced fertilizer requirements
- Increased nutritional content and bioavailability (Vitamin A producing and eventually nutritionally complete staple crops being a current GM goal)
 
Sorry, maybe I should have said big agra is focused on profit, not flavor.
 
orangehero said:
Everything you posted confirms that your statement is false. A bacterium is a different species. Natural Agrobacterium tumefasciens infection is an example of one species, a bacterium, transferring genetic material to another species, grapes for example.
Everything I posted was to show differences between genetic modification and horizontal gene transfer.  I DO understand that genes CAN be transfered naturally in nature. 
 
Horizontal gene flow is the closest thing to genetic engineering in nature. However, only limited number of microrganisms can insert DNA into plants, and plants have evolved defenses against this. Also, each insertion is a one-time event, whereas with GM, rather than a single mutant individual appearing, the environment is flooded with many many transformed plants, containing DNA from sources that bacteria would never naturally carry.
 
So yes, technically speaking, gene transfer is possible without human intervention. But to go into detail on a seed topic I thought would be irrelevant.  I think we can both agree if i edit 
from:
 being from another species, gene transfer is only possible with human intervention”
to:
"gene splicing is only possible with human intervention”---since this is basically cutting genes from ones DNA and pasting to anothers DNA 
 
 
Thoughts?
 
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