Thats what I always though but I recently heard otherwise, although I don't think Cappy really stabilized it he just inbred/isolated it and I'm not 100% sure it was actually a mutant it could have been a rare off-shoot from a 7 pod strain that wasn't quite 100% stable which would explain why there are so many similar varieties lately
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Since the Moruga will be the next "big" one for a moment...
- Thread starter Hammerfall
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The first 7 Pot I grew looked a lot like the CARDI pics except they weren't quite as bumpy. The first Trini Scorp Morouga Blend I grew looked a lot closer to the 7 Pot than the Trini Scorp. The second 7 Pot I grew was much more elongated and looked more like the CARDI Trini Scorps. I never grew that variety again.
I can see the 7 Primo causing a litle confusion, it does have a wicked tail, but it's also a short, squat pepper and not elongated like the Trini Scorp.
I can see the 7 Primo causing a litle confusion, it does have a wicked tail, but it's also a short, squat pepper and not elongated like the Trini Scorp.
I have stayed out of this conversation because I have mixed feelings about this new record. One one hand I am glad the pepper is being recognized for it's potential but on the other hand I am afraid we are going to put it down in the record books by the wrong name. I agree with a lot with everything that has been said that the Scorpion and 7 Pod are very closely related but you can see from megamaster71 photos that the pepper under question resembles the original 7 Pod by far over the original scorpion from CARDI. I encourage a DNA test of the pepper Jim Duffy had tested at CPI and compare that to samples from CARDI first, then compare against samples from the TSMB and the Brain Strain 7 Pod. Both Chris and I have been sharing this seed for 5 years now and anything could have happened in the process. I received this seed as 7 Pot Red from Sara Ragoonanan in 2008 about the same time chris received the TSMB also from Sara, she is the person who should be mentioned with this record not Jim. I hope CPI gets this correct.
My trinidad scorpion morouga 2008
seed came from lonewolf ... original seed by chris 2007 (as "Trinidad scorpion morouga blend")
seed came from lonewolf ... original seed by chris 2007 (as "Trinidad scorpion morouga blend")
Some of the TSMBs can grow a pretty strong tail like this one I grew last year:
Goddamn the genetics are so muddled. I don't even know what's what anymore. There could be 100 different strains that we're all calling the same and we wouldn't know it.... or maybe all of our strains are just the same.....
I might lose sleep over this (jk)
Goddamn the genetics are so muddled. I don't even know what's what anymore. There could be 100 different strains that we're all calling the same and we wouldn't know it.... or maybe all of our strains are just the same.....
I might lose sleep over this (jk)
original photos of CARDI
7 pod
Trinidad scorpion
© Herman Adams, CARDI
No this photo original from CARDI Marco. Who says Chis didn't have the mislabeled seed all along. At the very best the TSBM is a "blend" of both the 7 Pod and Scorpion so not a true scorpion.
From those CARDI shots I'm starting to wonder if even our TS Butch T's are close to the landrace strain. Most of them don't come out nearly that elongated. Those landrace scorpions look to me what I'd call Mother Super... the mother of all superhots grown 2 centuries ago. They even were sent to India in the mid 19th century and lost their tail becoming the Bhuts we know today (and from those pics you can really see it). If it's true I wonder if the 7 pot is a hybrid or mutant off of this strain, possibly a cross with a congo pepper or something that retained the heat from Mother Super. Of course now we're just making theories, but it'd be an interesting genetic study to do.
If someone can get me seeds for those CARDI scorpions that look like that I'd be really pleased. The rounder ones that we have now don't look a thing like it and these are the first pics of a scorpion that give evidence of a strong relation to the Bhut. I want to grow them and send them to Paul Bosland for some DNA tests. Genetic forensics here we come.
If someone can get me seeds for those CARDI scorpions that look like that I'd be really pleased. The rounder ones that we have now don't look a thing like it and these are the first pics of a scorpion that give evidence of a strong relation to the Bhut. I want to grow them and send them to Paul Bosland for some DNA tests. Genetic forensics here we come.
excuse my imperfect English
your statement is that my pictures are not original Cardi?
Not at all. If anything I think those are the most true scorpions I've ever seen. The ones we see today have been bred for a longer tail.
Not at all Marco I am just saying the TSMB resembles a 7 Pod not a Scorpion from the original CARDI pics.
yes .. i think so
lok here ... trinidad morouga (habanero type - no super-hot)
Notice the resemblance?
ok
I say the same
the chili is 7 pod
then they sought to stabilize the one with the tip calling scorpion
then, to simplify
trinidad scorpion = 7 pod with tail
for me to have the same genetic starting ...
the variant "morouga" is the most compact and wrinkled, like the brain ... and it is so early as 2007 (seeds from chris)
add this
In the thread of 2009 entitled "Proposal for the classification of varieties of trinidad"
http://www.pepperfriends.com/forum/topic/2396-proposta-classificazione-varieta-di-trinidad/
you'll see that I considered the morouga both as a 7 pod
third and fourth pics
and the one with the tip as trinidad scorpion morouga
fifth and sixth pics
mine was an idea that I brought forward from generation to generation, trying to make these same characteristics
The truth is, in my opinion but I may be wrong, that there are not yet stable varieties, so there is much work
Moreover, the variety morouga (7pod and TS) are the hottest I've ever tasted
it is true .... is what they say
My opinion is that it is instead the result of a selection of their work ... idea that I got talking to some people of Trinidad
Indeed you will see that the morouga scorpion is different from Scorpion CARDI
in the study by Bosland will see that they worked with CARDI who gave some of germplasm
I developed my own particular proposal to define the essential characteristics and to avoid unnecessary duplication
but it is my opinion and nothing more
then the fact remains that, for example, if i do a cross between a scorpion and a 7 pod orange I think that I can call him, if I can stabilize it. trinidad scorpion orange
a new variety no a landrace
My opinion is that it is instead the result of a selection of their work ... idea that I got talking to some people of Trinidad
Indeed you will see that the morouga scorpion is different from Scorpion CARDI
in the study by Bosland will see that they worked with CARDI who gave some of germplasm
I developed my own particular proposal to define the essential characteristics and to avoid unnecessary duplication
but it is my opinion and nothing more
then the fact remains that, for example, if i do a cross between a scorpion and a 7 pod orange I think that I can call him, if I can stabilize it. trinidad scorpion orange
a new variety no a landrace
The 7 pod and scorpion both have genetics inside them coding for scorpion tails. They are both incredibly related, like brother and sister. One of them is probably a hybrid of the other created naturally in the wild. The question isn't why when a 7 pod has a stinger you call it a scorpion, but why anything that's not one of the two landrace varieties are called by the 7 pot or scorpion name. The TS was originally named as such because it had a scorpion's tail and bite. We shouldn't have to limit ourselves to using the scorpion name just because we know that a variety's parents contained a 7 pot and not a scorpion. It doesn't make sense because A 7 pot is a type of scorpion and vice versa.
in the 1860's there were no 7 pots, there were no scorpions, just the Devil Pepper as they frequently called it. Take a look at the CARDI Scorpion up there and you'll get an idea what I'm talking about, that's probably around what it looked like.
Don't be confused when I claim the names 7 pot and scorpion are interchangeable. I'm not running around claiming we have to change a bunch of names around. I think too many people think I'm trying to mess with nomenclature when in reality its those doing the naming that are confusing all of us. I do not mean that we should switch names back and forth, I just feel that both scorpion and 7 pot have been used equally inaccurately. Scorpion seems to strike a phenotype in our heads of the distinct, pointed tail protrusion. Makes sense to me. 7 Pot has just been a broad term that we've applied to everything else... and half of them have been hybridized out of being super hot at this point. People just keep the 7 pot on the end because it helps it sell.
A 7 pot white is less of a 7 pot than a scorpion is and we should all realize this.
Everyone needs to calm down and wait until we get the CPI genetics report on the TSMB/Scorpion/7 pot to come out. We can have a better picture then as to exactly how similar these strains are and make better judgement calls from there. You can argue why other people call things the way they do, but I've never been a fan of any of our naming systems. The names won't change easily.
As for the Brain Strain being a 7 pot, I'm totally down with that. If it is in fact a mutant of a 7 pot it should be called nothing less. We see this phenotype coming up more and more from different strains and I think that's what's caused so much confusion on what the Brain Strain really was. I think this phenotype is just coming out in a lot of somewhat similar strains and to the untrained eye they all look similar.
And yes, the superbump mutation has happened a few times, and no it won't take 10 seasons to stabilize. You're thinking of hybridization. A mutation will stay true relatively quickly because it's just an expression of a hidden allele that likely turned full recessive. In a hybrid plant you have thousands of these traits going bonkers all at once (to go a bit layman on you guys, I'm too tired to get more specific) and it takes many generations to stop that and get everything to grow true. When it's only one trait it can be stable in as little as one season. What you are seeing is a recessive trait that the grandparents of all of these strains (The devil pepper) had, hidden or not, that is coming out and growing true in a few instances.
Sorry if anyone got confused with how I was talking about the relation between the Trinidad super strains.. I'm always open for discussion and I never wanted to change any names! Hope this clears things up. <3 you guys.
Edit: In case you're curious about the devil's pepper (The mother of all superhots), this is the article I'm basing that theory off of. I think it makes some convincing and compelling arguments: http://fiery-foods.com/chiles-around-the-world/76-caribbean/3028-lord-harris-the-ghost-pepper-governor
I agree with you
I also do not want to say that if a 7 pod has a tail then it is a TS ... my speech was to simplify how it arrived at two different names ... but perhaps I simplified too much
The island is small and all varieties are mixed together
The CARDI and some of us are trying to bring order
I, for example, I tried to draw three different phenotypes of 7 pod
7 pod
7 pod jonha
7 pod morouga
and two of trinidad scorpion
TS
TS morouga
but mine is a pure mental exercise
Needless to tell you to list all the names that we have read in the forum ... a pages would not suffice
But I think it is obvious that the characteristic of TS is the tail ... otherwise they would have called in another way
Marco that is pure chaos what your suggesting as I have never heard of a 7 Pod Morouga and you are just making up names and refuse to recognize the 7 Pod Brain Strain. This whole thread is about the Morouga not being neither a Scorpion nor a 7 Pod but a blend between the two landrace varieties. If anything the 7 Pod Brain Strain has the purest genes not being a hybrid as the TSMB. Why does Jim now want me to send him samples of my peppers just so he can send them to CPI for testing, sounds suspecious to me. They can contact me directly if they want samples.
my 7 pod morouga was born before your brain strain
why I'm the one that changes the names?
why you believe that your strain is the one with the right name when someone, before you, had already cultivated this strain with the same characteristics?
I still do not understand
but I prefer not to continue the discussion .. i repeat ... my is only a pure mental excercise ... my opinion is not absolute law and do not want it to be ... is just what I've seen in my experience
I have no interest in giving names for commercial purposes, I just need to categorize my variety ... then pretend that I have not written anything ...I know that I risk doing even more confusion
time will tell how things really are
For now it is certified from NMSU that this variant is called morouga ...
good luck
why I'm the one that changes the names?
why you believe that your strain is the one with the right name when someone, before you, had already cultivated this strain with the same characteristics?
I still do not understand
but I prefer not to continue the discussion .. i repeat ... my is only a pure mental excercise ... my opinion is not absolute law and do not want it to be ... is just what I've seen in my experience
I have no interest in giving names for commercial purposes, I just need to categorize my variety ... then pretend that I have not written anything ...I know that I risk doing even more confusion
time will tell how things really are
For now it is certified from NMSU that this variant is called morouga ...
good luck
Yes. 100 times yes. But they are similar because one is probably a cross from the other, or there was a bit of genetic drift and the two strains grew apart (although this is a bit more unlikely). The island is just too small to say that they are two completely unique chilies.
Edit for clarity and to add some theoretical nonsense:
If you look on the CARDI shots you will see a buckling inwards on the underside of the pods of the 7 pots. This structure on the pod is unique to Trinidad varieties and is what forms the 'tail' separation we all know of. The scorpion has this too, at least on most varieties I have seen, but it has a more pronounced 'point' at the bottom. That's the major difference I can tell. The CARDI shots of the scorpion posted in this thread look exactly like Bhuts to me and not like the scorpions we usually see around. That's not to say that the original scorpion didn't look like that, but I think that's what the 'Devil's Pepper' is, the scorpion without the buckling like the 7 pot has. That inward buckling might have been made when the Devil's Pepper got crossed with a Congo pepper and got an unusual phenotype out of it, resulting in what we now call '7 Pot'. Then this resulting 7 pot probably got recrossed with the Devil's Pepper to get the new scorpions we see today. It's kind of a random theory but if we're going on pod shape that's what they look like to me. It's completely feasible we just don't have the genetic data to back anything up yet. I suppose I'm just making stuff up at this point though. It's a small island and I don't see why it couldn't have happened exactly that way.
I think you're getting over defensive about the brain strain. We're all friends here just trying to get things right. Based on the things I've been hearing about all of these pods, yes, you discovered what is now known as the Brain Strain, but this phenotype (very bumpy/super super hot pods) has been simultaneously replicated from many Trinidad varieties. The Brain Strain is no longer the only one and it leads us to believe that it is due to a recessive allele trait that has been isolated in these strains. I don't think anyone is arguing that you made the BS from a 7 pot but there are also pods that were descendants of scorpions (or at least probably were) that developed similar traits. It leads us to believe that the allele has been there for a while since the original Trinidad landrace superhot. I think that is what Marco is getting at. That the trait that has been erroneously labeled as 'Morouga' (still not sure how it got that name) is the same trait that we see in the Brain Strain. That does not mean they are the same strains.
Jim and the CPI are not antagonizing you. He just hasn't noted a significant difference in pod shape, taste, heat, or placental tissue between the Brain and the TSMB and so has advised the CPI that they are the same strain I believe. He never requested samples from anyone, just claimed that the testing can be done if necessary. I want to provide those samples so we can put this nonsense to rest and get a better answer.