Right off the bat, I realize this topic will be considered sacrilege by some around here; I get it. Still though, I'm wondering if anyone has tried this approach and cannot find if/where someone has. I've made a dozen or so batches of hot sauce at this point; some fermented, some not. I am aware of how the fermentation process can help meld all of your vegetable flavors together while at the same time creating lactic acid. I have no issue with going through the fermentation but I am interested in learning if anyone has just skipped the fermentation process and just added lactic acid to their sauce? I have noticed for sure, that there is a specific acidity bite that i can clearly taste in certain commercial hot sauces that have "aged peppers" listed as an ingredient. I've also noticed that in my non fermented batches, I cannot replicate that same type of acidity bite no matter which combinations of acids I use or at what level. Leads me to believe that it must be attributed to the lactic acid. Not the fermentation, but one of the by products of said fermentation - greatly increased levels of lactic acid. Am I missing something here? Why has this not been done, or are my search skills that drastically lacking?
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fermenting Skip fermentation, just add Lactic Acid
- Thread starter TheLunchEater
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TheLunchEater said:
Can't help with your Lactic Acid question but I'll give the search issue a go. Use quotes t search a phrase, like "without fermentation" in the correct forum, Hot Sauce Making.... Good luck!
what's your goal?
if your goal is for some reason to have lactic acid, by all means, add that directly.
if your goal is a product that tastes fermented, lactic acid alone is not going to mimic the flavor. nowhere close.
lactobacilli produce many flavorful metabolites. fermentation isn't just "melding all of your vegetable flavors together while at the same time creating lactic acid" lol.
have you ever tasted a lemon? how about citric acid?
citric acid plus sugar solution doesn't yield lemonade. true lemon flavor is a complex bouquet of probably dozens or hundreds of chemicals.
if your goal is for some reason to have lactic acid, by all means, add that directly.
if your goal is a product that tastes fermented, lactic acid alone is not going to mimic the flavor. nowhere close.
lactobacilli produce many flavorful metabolites. fermentation isn't just "melding all of your vegetable flavors together while at the same time creating lactic acid" lol.
have you ever tasted a lemon? how about citric acid?
citric acid plus sugar solution doesn't yield lemonade. true lemon flavor is a complex bouquet of probably dozens or hundreds of chemicals.
Bou
Extreme Member
sinensis said:
Still a newbie in the food ferment world but as a homebrewer I'm pretty sure that the same would applies here; adding lactic acid won't give you anything close to the complexity of a real lacto-fermented mash, probably just the acid bite. Fermentation does involve numerous synergetic reactions that may (or may not) produce specific compounds and flavors, depending on many variables. In the other hand, maybe (though I don't remember seen it yet) some sauce makers are using lactic acid in replacement of acetic acid (vinegar) or citric acid (lemon juice) in their recipes.
My goal is to create a sauce that tastes good, not that tastes fermented.
While lacto fermentation undoubtedly produces things other than lactic acid, I'm wondering how many of them are improving the taste of the sauce? As a homebrewer, I do everything I can to control my fermentation in such a way that the yeast do not produce any undesirable "off flavors." All I really need the yeast for is to create the alcohol. While there are some styles of beer that do have qualities that are derived directly from certain fermentation specifics, most do not. For most beers, you do everything you can to control it in such a way that you absolutely minimize all of the other "complexities" that contribute unwanted flavor.
So, I guess I really am just looking for that "bite." I realize that adding the lactic acid will not replace the complexities that a fermentation would bring. My goal is just that with the hot sauces that I've made so far, I cannot seem to replicate the same level/taste of acidity that I find in hot sauces that have "aged peppers" as an ingredient. I was assuming that "aged" meant fermented. While these sauces do not have lactic acid listed an ingredient, if it is a fermented sauce, I have to assume there is a fair amount of lactic acid making into their final product and that is the extra acidic quality that I cannot seem to replicate. I'm not tasting a drastic difference in complexity, those sauces just seem to have more of an acid bite that I have yet to create using strictly vinegar and or a combination of vinegar/lime juice.
My goal is to find that extra bite. I know that I can achieve it through fermentation; I'm wondering if I could skip the fermentation and just add the lactic acid? Probably could experiment with Acetic acid as well, for that matter. Was just curious if anyone else had tried this before I jump in and start experimenting. My real concern is trying to figure out how much to use. As a hot sauce making noob, I welcome any critique in my thinking here.
While lacto fermentation undoubtedly produces things other than lactic acid, I'm wondering how many of them are improving the taste of the sauce? As a homebrewer, I do everything I can to control my fermentation in such a way that the yeast do not produce any undesirable "off flavors." All I really need the yeast for is to create the alcohol. While there are some styles of beer that do have qualities that are derived directly from certain fermentation specifics, most do not. For most beers, you do everything you can to control it in such a way that you absolutely minimize all of the other "complexities" that contribute unwanted flavor.
So, I guess I really am just looking for that "bite." I realize that adding the lactic acid will not replace the complexities that a fermentation would bring. My goal is just that with the hot sauces that I've made so far, I cannot seem to replicate the same level/taste of acidity that I find in hot sauces that have "aged peppers" as an ingredient. I was assuming that "aged" meant fermented. While these sauces do not have lactic acid listed an ingredient, if it is a fermented sauce, I have to assume there is a fair amount of lactic acid making into their final product and that is the extra acidic quality that I cannot seem to replicate. I'm not tasting a drastic difference in complexity, those sauces just seem to have more of an acid bite that I have yet to create using strictly vinegar and or a combination of vinegar/lime juice.
My goal is to find that extra bite. I know that I can achieve it through fermentation; I'm wondering if I could skip the fermentation and just add the lactic acid? Probably could experiment with Acetic acid as well, for that matter. Was just curious if anyone else had tried this before I jump in and start experimenting. My real concern is trying to figure out how much to use. As a hot sauce making noob, I welcome any critique in my thinking here.
I've been thinking about using lactic acid in a sauce also...I've had a bottle of it sitting in my amazon wish list for a couple of years. I've always been curious about using different acids in sauces, mainly to get away from the flavor of vinegar that is so overused in commercial sauces. Lately I've been using a combination of vinegar and citric acid, sometimes I'll use citrus juices if I want that flavor. But, I like the idea of using different acids to try to get a more pepper forward flavor.
I think I'll try some lactic acid in a sauce this season. And also experiment more with fermented sauces. I know using the lactic acid wouldn't be some workaround to get a fermented sauce flavor without the fermentation(I've had "dry cured" sausages with lactic acid added in, and you can definitely tell it's faked). But, I'm more interested in using a combo of vinegar, citric acid, and lactic acid to sort of mellow out the acidity, if that makes sense. That way you won't really taste/feel one acid too much, dominating the flavor profile. Anyway.....just brainstorming, hopefully I'll get around to it and post about it.
Also...there are some other food acids that might be cool to try:
Malic, the acid in apples
Tartaric, in grapes, and tamarinds
Phosphoric, in coke
Ascorbic Acid, vitamin C
I think I'll try some lactic acid in a sauce this season. And also experiment more with fermented sauces. I know using the lactic acid wouldn't be some workaround to get a fermented sauce flavor without the fermentation(I've had "dry cured" sausages with lactic acid added in, and you can definitely tell it's faked). But, I'm more interested in using a combo of vinegar, citric acid, and lactic acid to sort of mellow out the acidity, if that makes sense. That way you won't really taste/feel one acid too much, dominating the flavor profile. Anyway.....just brainstorming, hopefully I'll get around to it and post about it.
Also...there are some other food acids that might be cool to try:
Malic, the acid in apples
Tartaric, in grapes, and tamarinds
Phosphoric, in coke
Ascorbic Acid, vitamin C
i've tasted acetic, malic, citric, phosphoric, and ascorbic acid solutions side by side in a few different concentrations, and there are noticeable differences between them.
it helped give me insight about which acids to use in different recipes (not just sauce making). it's worth trying imo.
there are many papers worth reading on the subject, but it's also something you should try out yourself.
regrettably, i have never tried lactic acid on its own. it's worth testing out! compare with some other common acids though to find what you like.
i strongly disagree with that assessment. why not just add storebought grain alcohol to your wort and call it a day? surely that would be less work than beermaking.
i've never tried a beer where non-alcohol fermentation products were not absolutely central to the flavor.
there's all kinds of sauces.
if you don't want fermented, then don't ferment. most sauces i've tried were not fermented.
and yes, for flavor, food safety, and shelf life, acids are added all the time -- even to fermented sauces! imho acetic acid (vinegar) is the most common.
how much to use?
it helped give me insight about which acids to use in different recipes (not just sauce making). it's worth trying imo.
there are many papers worth reading on the subject, but it's also something you should try out yourself.
regrettably, i have never tried lactic acid on its own. it's worth testing out! compare with some other common acids though to find what you like.
TheLunchEater said:
i strongly disagree with that assessment. why not just add storebought grain alcohol to your wort and call it a day? surely that would be less work than beermaking.
i've never tried a beer where non-alcohol fermentation products were not absolutely central to the flavor.
TheLunchEater said:
there's all kinds of sauces.
if you don't want fermented, then don't ferment. most sauces i've tried were not fermented.
and yes, for flavor, food safety, and shelf life, acids are added all the time -- even to fermented sauces! imho acetic acid (vinegar) is the most common.
how much to use?
read this and the other pinned topics for even more info: http://thehotpepper.com/topic/29501-making-hot-sauce-101/salsalady said:
Bou
Extreme Member
TheLunchEater said:
An easy way to determine which of thoses acid you prefer and how much of it is enough/not too much (according to your own personnal taste) would be to make a cheap sauce out of bell peppers. Then you just have to split it in small batches of equal volume and try both acid in different amounts. When you'll find your perfect combination, just need to scale it up to your usual batch size.
Why don't you use pH paper or get a pH meter to measure the sauces that have the "bite" you like?
Once you find what pH delivers the "bite" you like, you can then add various acids to a basic sauce to determine how much acid to add to get the "bite" you like
Once you find what pH delivers the "bite" you like, you can then add various acids to a basic sauce to determine how much acid to add to get the "bite" you like
You are absolutely onto something!!!
I'm a home brewer..mostly Cider these days. I grow hot peppers and ferment them. A month ago I poured the clear salt broth of lactic acid-salt solution off of my 100 day fermented Habs and Reapers and saved it in the fridge. The resulting sauce from those fermented peppers was like candy and it ran out WAY too soon!!!!!!!!
. I'm so glad that I saved my lactic solution... because I went to the store and bought a pound of Habs. I smolked them fresh in my smoker for 4 hours and then blended them into my stored lactic acid salt solution..... Awesome Sauce!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is the result!! My harvest has now been extended :-)
The "Tang" from 100 days of patience has now been married to my new sauce...and it is so great!
I'm a home brewer..mostly Cider these days. I grow hot peppers and ferment them. A month ago I poured the clear salt broth of lactic acid-salt solution off of my 100 day fermented Habs and Reapers and saved it in the fridge. The resulting sauce from those fermented peppers was like candy and it ran out WAY too soon!!!!!!!!
. I'm so glad that I saved my lactic solution... because I went to the store and bought a pound of Habs. I smolked them fresh in my smoker for 4 hours and then blended them into my stored lactic acid salt solution..... Awesome Sauce!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! is the result!! My harvest has now been extended :-)
The "Tang" from 100 days of patience has now been married to my new sauce...and it is so great!
That's not a bad idea but my thinking is that I can measure the pH easy enough. But I wouldn't know how to determine what ratio of acid is contributing to the overall pH of the sauce. Meaning, if I were to test the sauces that i like, how much of the "bite" comes from the lactic acid vs how much comes from the vinegar/lime juice (or whatever else)? Don't mean to shoot you down, just not sure how I would pull that off without some sophisticated equipment. I just know that when I tasted fermented sauces, they have more of a pronounced/well rounded "bite/tang" profile than unfermented sauces. I've always contributed that to the fact that when I see "aged peppers" in an ingredient list, that equates to fermented peppers. Classic fermentation of peppers tends to result in lactic acid production. That's what I'm after. Just going off the pH, I could just add more vinegar/lime juice/fill in the blank.....but I'm guessing it wouldn't have the same flavor.BrewsWayne said:
I realize fermentation is critical; maybe even necessary to the "perfect" sauce. I'm just wondering if adding lactic acid to an otherwise good sauce, wouldn't help round out the flavor. Get a similar result without having to ferment.
Like I said in the OP, I realize this is tantamount to sacrilege around here and I get it. I'm not even planning on this being my M.O. when I make sauce. But as an alternative, I think it's got legs. I got some lactic acid from my local home brew shop and will be trying this soon. Keep ya'll posted.
I'd like to know more about how this all worked out....Freedom said:
Freedom said:
the supernatant from a 100 day (!!!) ferment is way different than a simple lactic acid solution.
it's full of other delicious flavors...
i have a few liters of that stuff in the fridge that i occasionally drizzle on foods, and i'm trying to come up with a better use for it because it's taking up too much space. smells and tastes pretty darn good.
A little late to the thread, but... When I was a homebrewer many years ago, I listened to a lot of podcasts on the subject and recall hearing about a brewer at a very popular brewery in New York somewhere (can't remember where), that was gaining a lot of notoriety for his sour beers. I was surprised to learn that he had decided to shortcut the traditional wild yeast/lacto fermentation process and just use acidulated malt (that is treated with lactic acid) fermented with a standard clean brewing yeast. While I agree that you're not going to get the complexity of flavors you would in a traditional ferment, I think it's within the realm of possibility to create a really good sauce that has some characteristics of a fermented sauce by using lactic acid vs. a full-scale fermentation. To me, part of the fun is observing the fermentation take place, but I'm always game for finding different ways of doing things. Will be interested to see what your experiments yield.
Bou
Extreme Member
Yeah, as a homebrewer myself I had the same reflexion. The only things that stopped me is the fact that it's almost impossible to know what strains of nasties (besides Lactobacillus) might be hidding on the grains. Was planning to experiment with it in a near future!
Hey!
So, I got some lactic acid to try in a sauce and it does add a slightly different taste to the hot sauce. I used LD Carlson 88% lactic acid. The addition also seemed to create a filmy texture on my tongue. I'll try it again and see if that persists, but the sauce with lactic acid in it made my mouth feel like I had wax on my tongue.
Onto the important bit, though: It did not make my quick made sauce taste like my fermented sauce. So, if you are thinking that adding lactic acid is a shortcut to fermented-style sauce, you will not achieve the same kind of flavor.
So, I got some lactic acid to try in a sauce and it does add a slightly different taste to the hot sauce. I used LD Carlson 88% lactic acid. The addition also seemed to create a filmy texture on my tongue. I'll try it again and see if that persists, but the sauce with lactic acid in it made my mouth feel like I had wax on my tongue.
Onto the important bit, though: It did not make my quick made sauce taste like my fermented sauce. So, if you are thinking that adding lactic acid is a shortcut to fermented-style sauce, you will not achieve the same kind of flavor.
Siv
Extreme Member
I've recently been making vegan cheeses which are usually from some kind of nut milk. Nut milk can be cultured just like cow's milk but it's something I'd rather leave to the professionals. So when I've been making vegan cheeses, I add lactic acid in powder form and it's gives the cheese that tang than naturally comes from fermentation. It's potent stuff though so I use if very sparingly. I think it's a useful additive for adding that acidic tang to foods that you choose not to ferment (or can't ferment). Rather than treating it as an alternative to fermentation, I treat it as an alternative acid source instead of using just vinegar. It definitely adds a different flavour than regular vinegar or citric acid. Also, since the stuff I have is in powder form, I can add to a recipe without all the water that comes with vinegar giving me better control over the density.
Interesting that you observe a filmy feeling in the mouth - not something that I'd want for hot sauce but definitely the right thing for a cheese.
AzJon said:
Interesting that you observe a filmy feeling in the mouth - not something that I'd want for hot sauce but definitely the right thing for a cheese.
Yeah, I'm sure adding it to vegan cheeses is great. That lactic acid probably gives just enough something to the process to mimic the flavor of real cheese.Siv said:
Hadn't thought of using powder, though. Might be a worthwhile experiment down the line.
From what I've experimented thus far, the simple addition of lactic acid does not give a similar taste/result as a fermented sauce.