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breeding So I've got this cross....

I saved seeds from a Chocolate Hab grown next to some fatalis by a friend last year, and it turns out all the pods coming onto the plants I'd thought would be chocolate hab are growing wrinkly, pointy, and elongated! So obviously they got in bed with each other!

Here's a pic of a developing fruit. The ones that have become nearly full size now look like slightly flattened versions of my fatali pods... I'll try to get a pic of these same pods full size now....

DSCN0787.jpg




Then I stumble upon this bit of info on crosses this morning at work....The below was quoted from another forum on shamanic botanicals. Gotta love google.



"And heres just a few notes on the genetics:

Pepper orientation: Pendant- Dominant Upright- Recessive .. Mendelian

Fruit:
Yellow is fully recessive to red
Gold color is recessive to red
orange is recessive to orange-yellow
two independent, fully-recessive genes are necessary to achieve a green when ripe coloration in peppers. One is the cl gene, which retains chlorophyll ("prevents the complete degradation of chlorophyll") and the other is the y gene (y+="red pigment lycopene", y=yellow or orange).
Here's the down and dirty of the 4 combinations of these genes and their phenotypes (what you see):
Red mature fruit: y+/y+, cl+/cl+
Yellow mature fruit: y/y, cl+/cl+
Brown mature fruit: y+/y+, cl/cl
Green mature fruit: y/y, cl/cl



I understand Mendelian genetics well as I was a Bio. major in college, so I understand that this could be simplified and that more than two alleles might code for mature fruit color. However, if the alleles listed above are correct, than my cross should end up being a red pod?!

At least that's the way I'm seeing it. Red is dominant over yellow, so y+ will come from the chocolate parent, y from the fatali expressing red color. The cl+ allele would come from the fatali, and cl allele from chocolate hab should combine to mean the chlorophyll degrades, leaving me with red pods!


Anyone know whether the above info on dominance is correct or not? If it is, This could make for an interesting red fatali-ish pod. The pods coming on to the pod look really cool, and are bumpy like a Fatalii, but seem even larger than the ones on my fatalii plants.
 
Can you be sure it was crossed with a fatalii? It does look like it.
So far all my plants that were yellow f1's are now red in the f2 year:(
 
I agree with you - if the above is correct you'll get red fruit. That is also assuming that the fatalli is the father.
 
Well, I can't be sure it's fatalii, but I do know that the only other plants around were a caribbean red hab, and another plant he called "golden habanero" that had short and squat shaped pods with more wrinkly shoulders. All of his other plants except fatalii had blunt blossom ends, so I'm kindof making the assumption that fatalii was the daddy.

It will be an interesting cross to watch develop! If it's tasty, I'll try and overwinter this one for sure.

I am a bit pissed though, only because it now looks as though none of my plants will have chocolate pods. DAMN! I really wanted some chocolate pods of my own this year!
 
Do chocolate pods in general cross more easily than other colors? I get more crosses with them and most all my crossed pods ripen red. Problems with both my Chocolate Habs and Chocolate Fatalli ripening red. Really interesting genetics even though I don't understand a bit of it. I'll bring some different chocolte pods up your way FiveStar.
 
I guess that it's just easier to spot a cross when you are expecting chocolate pods. If you think you grow a variety that are supposed to have red pods you might not realize that you have a cross, especially if you haven't grown that variety before so you know how they should look and taste.
 
MrArboc said:
I guess that it's just easier to spot a cross when you are expecting chocolate pods. If you think you grow a variety that are supposed to have red pods you might not realize that you have a cross, especially if you haven't grown that variety before so you know how they should look and taste.



Exactly! The only way you could have a chocolate pod is by having both recessive alleles for non-degradation of Chlorophyll. So if a chocolate podded plant gets crossed with ANYTHING except a chocolate podded plant, unless it's also heterozygous (has both the recessive and dominant allele) you'll most likely have red pods.
 
How would someone get a brown pod from what was previously a red pod? I know AJ got a brown pod from some seeds I sent him that were supposed to be red. Wouldn't certain recessive genes show up only after the f1 generation? I know red is usually always dominant
 
POTAWIE said:
How would someone get a brown pod from what was previously a red pod? I know AJ got a brown pod from some seeds I sent him that were supposed to be red. Wouldn't certain recessive genes show up only after the f1 generation? I know red is usually always dominant

Recessive genes doubling up:) Because red is dominant a plant with red pods can also carry the genes for yellow and/or for retaining chlorophyll so it would be possible to get plants with brown or green mature fruit even if both parents are red if they both carry the recessive trait(s).
 
Well... If two red podded parent plants had the genotype y+/y or y+/y+ for lycopene, their pigmentation would be red. However, if they both had the genotype cl+/cl, then they'd both be carriers of the recessive gene. So the resulting combinations of alleles for the cross of chlorophyll degredation only would be 1/4 cl+/cl+, 2/4 cl+/cl, and 1/4 cl/cl. All genotypes with the cl+ in them would produce red fruits, since the chlorophyll would degrade because cl+ codes for degrading chlorophyll. 1/4 of the resulting offspring (and this is all probability, so actual numbers would approach these ideals as the number of offspring increased) would have the genotype cl/cl for non-degradation of chlorophyll.

So what's happening here, there seem to be one set of alleles that are determining either yellow or red color based on lycopene production, and another set of alleles that are coding for the degradation of the chlorophyll, which when not degraded gives the pods a brown color. Green + red = brown. But what's really got me thinking is that it seems from the above info on the genetics that if you could really breed intensively some yellow podded plants and some chocolate podded plants, you might after many generations be able to get pods that were y/y for yellow pods, and cl/cl for no chlorophyll degradation, and actually have pods that were green when ripe!

Who knows where the purple and orange colors fit into this puzzle. Obviously there are more genes or mutated ones in the population that can lead to different pod colors.
 
There is also totally different shades of brown Chinenses. I grew a "chocolate Madagascar one year that ripened totally different than other chocolates and was much, much darker and a different flavor.
 
This is true! Also, I wonder if purple color comes from a partial degradation of the chlorophyll or something. Seems almost like the brown color could be a very rich deep purple sometimes in a few pods I've seen. Dunno what else could make a purple color. Let's see.... Yellow and blue make green, red and blue make purple...Now my head is starting to hurt...


But can you imagine a chile that had all the flavor of a ripe pod but was green? Could be cool. Could be boring. I rather enjoy the color chiles can bring to food/sauce, and besides that many of the coloration pigments in fruit are antioxidants. Of course those same yellow pigments might be made in the ripe green fruits according to the above genetic information, but just not as easily perceived by they eye.
 
Often the purple is anthocyanin pigment creating a "suntan" for protection.
I can't see a green pod having the flavor of a yellow, orange red etc. Each color seems to habe different levels of vitamins and different flavors
 
Quick update for those who'd like to see them. here are a few shots of the pods. Bear in mind, these seeds were taken from a chocolate hab that looked nothing like this. I'm definitely thinking Fatalii is the daddy.


DSCN0815.jpg


DSCN0813.jpg


Time will tell about the color. I'm pretty excited for these!
 
To be honest SS, I'm just taking what comes at the moment. If the flavor and heat are something special, I'll definitely at the very least overwinter. Probly save some isolated seed for an F2 to see how those grow out as well. Right now it just feels like Christmas waiting on a pepper I haven't tasted.
 
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