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sowing vs plantout times................

chilehunter said:
last frost can be a killer, & it can come out of nowhere! a couple years ago everything was fine & dandy with nice warm temps nowhere near 32F, so people planted out.
then BAM below freezing temps came, alot of people lost veggies in the garden that year here.

I second that! Last year we had a real late cold snap (April?) and I'd already put maybe a dozen plants in their 3 gal containers. I had to bring them in 3 nights in a row (no greenhouse then) and my back STILL hurts.

Also, I had these beautiful compact seedlings that were used to 14+ hours of intense light. Then they got a solid week of rain and clouds after I xplanted them. They stetched out like a pine forest! Then I had to tie them to a stick.
 
Pam said:
Well, no, that's not true. Six to ten weeks before the last frost is pretty well accepted as the best time to start seeds indoors. Remember, most people don't have artificial lighting or more than a windowsill or two that gets much sun. If the plants are started any sooner, they'll be spindly, pot bound, and generally unhealthy by the time they finally get outside.
You sure about that? I started a few of mine in November and they arent.
Last year I started some "hots" in February and the unripe pods got zapped in Mid October by the first hard frost of the year
 
wordwiz said:
Pam,

I'm not sure anyone except my immediate family has seen the set-up, except for the pictures I've posted. :shocked

What surprised me was the suggestion that three sets of leaves are enough. Perhaps for those who believe that as long as the top of the roots are in dirt and having lots of stem showing, as opposed to planting to almost the bottom leaves, that might work. IME, if those plants get a beating rain - not unusual in May, the heart will be so close to the ground it will be covered in mud.

Nonsense, I've planted at three sets of leaves before and the plants have done fine. They're in more danger from cut worms and the mighty paw of Canis lumbercus then anything else, and they'd have to be far larger than that before they're safe from either of those hazards.

Oh course it's nicer when they're bigger, but there are a whole lot of people out there who are more likely to kill their plants by keeping them inside then going ahead and moving them outside when they're on the small side. Perhaps since you're keeping your operation secret from everyone but your family, you don't get the wailing phone calls I do.


Yeah, it can be done, just as Park Seeds recommends putting the plants 12" apart in the garden (at least they recommend 30-36" rows).

I pack my plants pretty close together, some closer than others. I base it on an estimate of the adult plant size. By late July most years the limbs of my plants overlap significantly. I have to be careful not to put really tall plants next to short plants, or the short plants can be overwhelmed and shaded out.

Do you really think Park Seed or Reamers cares about how the plants grow? All they want is money.

I don't anything about Reimers except that they're notorious for selling cross bred seed and crummy customer service. I do know a little more about Park Seed, and I have seen evidence that satisfied customers are important to them. Been to their flower festival, too, and their gardens are gorgeous! Oh, they're just as weasely as any large nursery with regards to creating hybrids instead of breeding to stabilize strains, and I have accused them of enhancing the colors in some of their catalog photos; but there is no profit for them in dissatisfied customers.

If you don't like their advice, don't take it. There is no doubt that it is "lowest common denominator" advice. However, don't say it can't be done that way, because it can, and it can be done that way very successfully. It does not have to be as complicated as you guys try and make it. I'm going to repeat that because that point gets lost under the endless threads about lights and watts and luminous flux and grow boxes and nutes and hormones and whatever. It does not have to be as complicated as you guys try and make it. Complicated can be loads of fun, but it not vital to the growth of peppers.

Shoot, one of the guys in mainenance where I work tosses a pack of jalapeno seeds in a plowed field along with tomato, corn, and water melon seeds and gets bumper crops every year. He thinks the coddling I give peppers and tomatoes is hilarious.

So, to get back to the original point, if space is an issue, than planting 6 to 10 weeks before plant out is perfectly doable. If space is not an issue, bigger plants are better, and complicated grow systems can be loads of fun when it's icky cold winter outside.
 
BrianS said:
You sure about that? I started a few of mine in November and they arent.
Last year I started some "hots" in February and the unripe pods got zapped in Mid October by the first hard frost of the year


Good for you!


Are you the lowest common denominator?
 
Pam said:
Nonsense, I've planted at three sets of leaves before and the plants have done fine. They're in more danger from cut worms and the mighty paw of Canis lumbercus then anything else, and they'd have to be far larger than that before they're safe from either of those hazards.

Pam,

What can I say? I've only planted, conservatively, well over a million plants in my life, though the vast majority of those were tobacco or tomato plants. We did have some plants with six leaves survive but their rate was far below those plants that had eight-ten leaves. Especially if those first few days after transplant were very sunny or a heavy rain came while the day after they met the dirt. Just because something can be done doesn't mean it should be.

Oh course it's nicer when they're bigger, but there are a whole lot of people out there who are more likely to kill their plants by keeping them inside then going ahead and moving them outside when they're on the small side.

Again, if you say so. But they must go to extremes to hurt those plants while they are inside, such as not watering them for a week or two.

Perhaps since you're keeping your operation secret from everyone but your family, you don't get the wailing phone calls I do.

You read what I didn't write. I hardly keep my operation secret - about 10,000 people a week can read about it, as I write about my gardening each week in my newspaper. But not lots of people here in the Valley really want to knock on my door in the middle of winter and ask for a tour. Plus, it's not all that impressive. Some 105 watt CFL bulbs hanging from metal studs, a box with a couple of HID and a CFL bulb in it, an amroire with a 105 watt and 25 watt CFL and a couple of hydro units, another couple of hydro units with LED panels over them. The stuff one sees everyplace.

I pack my plants pretty close together, some closer than others. I base it on an estimate of the adult plant size. By late July most years the limbs of my plants overlap significantly. I have to be careful not to put really tall plants next to short plants, or the short plants can be overwhelmed and shaded out.

If it works for you, great! I'll be last one to tell you to change. I suspect that if such close planting resulted in increased production, though, pepper farmers around the world would be practicing it.

If you don't like their advice, don't take it. There is no doubt that it is "lowest common denominator" advice. However, don't say it can't be done that way, because it can, and it can be done that way very successfully. It does not have to be as complicated as you guys try and make it. I'm going to repeat that because that point gets lost under the endless threads about lights and watts and luminous flux and grow boxes and nutes and hormones and whatever. It does not have to be as complicated as you guys try and make it. Complicated can be loads of fun, but it not vital to the growth of peppers.

Why are you trying to turn this into a discussion other than what it is - when to sow seeds? To paraphrase Williard, sow the seeds and watch them grow. I try pointing out that in my experience, which again spans nearly five decades, very small plants have a hard time succeeding and that seed companies that suggest sowing seeds 6-8 weeks before the last killing frost are doing a disservice to their customers and they are basing that advice that plants with three sets of leaves can be transplanted without concern. That's not my experience. Nor is it my experience that most hot pepper seeds will be even that large in 8 weeks, especially if all one has is a south facing window to put the plants in. It's not like the seed packs say to germinate the seeds in moist soil that is 85 degrees.

So, to get back to the original point, if space is an issue, than planting 6 to 10 weeks before plant out is perfectly doable. If space is not an issue, bigger plants are better, and complicated grow systems can be loads of fun when it's icky cold winter outside.

Sorry, sowing six weeks before plant out and expecting the plants to survive is not doable, at least not at any success rate one would define as acceptable. You are talking about one week to germinate, one week to harden off which leaves you four weeks to grow a decent-size plant that will survive 90 degree temps after an inch of rain. If you can do this, I'll tip my hat to you!

Mike
 
wordwiz said:
Sorry, sowing six weeks before plant out and expecting the plants to survive is not doable, at least not at any success rate one would define as acceptable.

I shall insist any late or last minutes plants of mine stop thriving at once.


You are talking about one week to germinate, one week to harden off which leaves you four weeks to grow a decent-size plant that will survive 90 degree temps after an inch of rain. If you can do this, I'll tip my hat to you!

*waits for hat tip*
 
Pam said:
*waits for hat tip*

Show me the before and after pix with the weather report and I will find a tipping hat .gif! ;)

Mike

P.S. - Include a pic of the south facing window. Gotta go with the LCD! :whistle:
 
wordwiz said:
Show me the before and after pix with the weather report and I will find a tipping hat .gif! ;)

Mike

P.S. - Include a pic of the south facing window. Gotta go with the LCD! :whistle:


Ha! Way to hedge your bets!



So, out of curiosity, how many places *do* have 90 F heat at first plant out date?
 
Pam,

I grant you that very few places usually have 90 degree temps on FF day, if they did then it would be moved up a few days or weeks. OTOH, having temps in the mid-80s a day or two after FF day is not rare.

But I'm more curious to see the size of plants you are going to transplant six weeks after you sow them, or even eight weeks.

Remember, you have to grow them to the LCD - a newbie who doesn't know squat about raising seedlings, but only goes by what Park Seed or Reamers (sic) tells him on their package.

Mike
 
*shrug* I don't have a window that gets direct sun in this house. All my south, east, and west windows are shaded by plants and trees or the porch. So, I'm already disqualified by your rules.
 
Pam,

Excuses, excuses! Bat your eyes at some male neighbor and ask him if you can use his window to make a Yankee tip his hat to you.

Mike
 
caroltlw said:
I second that! Last year we had a real late cold snap (April?) and I'd already put maybe a dozen plants in their 3 gal containers. I had to bring them in 3 nights in a row (no greenhouse then) and my back STILL hurts.

Also, I had these beautiful compact seedlings that were used to 14+ hours of intense light. Then they got a solid week of rain and clouds after I xplanted them. They stetched out like a pine forest! Then I had to tie them to a stick.

First, let me explain that it simply does not snow here. Like maybe once every 5-10 years. And even then it usually happens in jan-feb when temps tend to be coldest......

Last year it f'ing snowed in APRIL! :shocked:

Generally our last frost date is middle of february. I can't even remember the last time we've had frost in March. But f'ing APRIL!??!?! April is supposed to be 90+ degrees here and raining balls.






*throws a shoe at pam and mike*

keep it down will ya?! i'm trying to watch the superbowl
 
After the Ritual of Tampon Burning and the extensive lectures on "Snakes are Our Friends", so Let's Stop Killing Them, they think I'm strange enough. Now you want to me to go and flirt with my married neighbor and explain that I'm doing that to prove a point to a bunch of on-line ax murderers and perverts I've never met?
 
Txclosetgrower said:
*throws a shoe at pam and mike*

keep it down will ya?! i'm trying to watch the superbowl


*nods* Yes, these violent sports events are encouraging violence in the general population. I think the violent sporting events should be banned.
 
Pam said:
ANow you want to me to go and flirt with my married neighbor and explain that I'm doing that to prove a point to a bunch of on-line ax murderers and perverts I've never met?

I want you to know I don't own an axe, but I should have an adz out in the barn.

Also, I haven't been upgraded (or downgraded) to the pervert list yet. I'm still on the Weird roster.

Mike
 
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