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soil Supplementing Nitrogen Rich Soil

Edmick

Edmick

Staff Member
Moderator
eXtreme
Well, so far it's looking like it's going to be a great year for peppers. Plants are exploding with new healthy growth but very little production so far. About half my plants are chinense so I'm not too worried about it but one thing is pretty clear. Based on the the dark green foliage and vigorous growth of everything (peppers and others), I think my soil is nitrogen heavy. The delayed production could also be due to a heat wave we experienced but there hasn't really been any appreciable blossom drop or anything and I am running shade cloth to help them deal with the heat a little better but for the sake of argument, lets assume that my soil is nitrogen heavy and lacking in other nutrients. What would you use to supplement? Is this a time when a bloom formula would be beneficial? I know some folks think bloom formulas are a waste and all you need is a well rounded npk nutrient but I clearly don't need any extra nitrogen so is a bloom formula warranted in this case? Liquid nutes are a total pain in the ass based on the size of my garden so I was hoping to use a granular nutrient that I could just spread around and water in (was thinking the organic jobes tomato and veggie) but again, not really wanting any more nitrogen. I should add that all my plants are in ground and I didn't have a soil analysis done. I put a thin layer of compost early on, worm casting in each transplant hole and thats it so far. Thoughts?
 
Having nitrogen heavy soil doesn't mean that your plants won't produce.  Nitrogen isn't a nutrient that's subject to "luxury consumption".  If there is a mechanism that is proven to stifle fruit production, in the presence of "excess" nitrogen, I'd like to know more about it.  I hear it discussed in gardening circles, but have never seen the phenomenon qualified, or quantified.  Also, I haven't personally witnessed it. (and you've heard me drone on forever about my non-bloom grows, including a whole season in Alaska 5-1-1, etc)
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You won't delay blooming by having lots of nitrogen.  But you WILL induce blooming, if you were to release excess nitrogen, and teeter on the edge of deficiency.  If your plants are in ground, it's very easy to accomplish this.  Just break the topsoil, and release the sequestered gaseous nitrogen.  Of course, if you choose to use that tactic, you'll want to immediately supplement nitrogen and/or mulch, afterwards.  Our plants - contrary to popular belief - don't stop using nitrogen during fruiting.  Some may choose to cut off nitrogen, if their plants will be sacrificed after the first harvest.  I'm not one who believes that we should do that.
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Conversely, there is no "trigger" for plants to begin fruiting through the manipulation of PK.  We do have a few plant guys and microbiologists on the forum.  Maybe some of them know of a hormone that is readily available in an easy to acquire means.  That would be my angle.  
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I suspect that whatever triggers a good healthy bloom, can be found in my Alaska fish, and my homemade stuff. :D
 
You could feed the soil microlife a molasses solution. Ive heard a study that says they will quickly deplete soil nitrates. That is, if your soil is alive.
If you want granular without nitrogen, maybe earthworm castings for K or jamaican bat guano for P.
By top dressing, the fertilizer will have delayed effect. Scratch it in, get it under the mulch if you can. (Recently, I lifted my mulch and found surface roots thriving in the microclimate provided by the light/heat barrier).
I've read that P has very low mobility in the soil web regardless of type. A depth of 2-3 inches, near the roots is ideal.
But something like colloidial rock phosphate is supposedly very slow delivery.
Also, Nitrogen rich soil effects calcium uptake, which the root zone cation exchange capacity prioritizes over K.
So, if you go that route, you may want to further consider your growth phase and nutrient delivery timing.
 
Mr. West said:
Also, Nitrogen rich soil effects calcium uptake, which the root zone cation exchange capacity prioritizes over K.
So, if you go that route, you may want to further consider your growth phase and nutrient delivery timing.
Click to expand...
 
What is that based on?  It's proven that applications of soluble calcium improve not the only the uptake of, but also the efficiency of N, P, and K.  That may be due to either the basic function of Calcium, or it may point to a pH issue, that the application of calcium helps to correct. 
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Either way, I think it needs to be qualified that Nitrogen rich soil, on its own, affects calcium uptake.  How does it do this?
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Also, the only place that I've ever seen the K issue, is in a high CEC media, like coco coir.  For soil, and other grow media, there is often a much lower CEC, that negates this issue. (if it's even present, at all)
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I reserve the right to be wrong on this.  But if I am, I'd like to be set straight on it.  A whole lot of my own growing depends on it.
 
I kinda glossed over the last bit of the op, about having already amended with compost and worm castings.
And solid7, your bit about breaking the soil surface is good thinking, I didn't consider that. Probably because I'm mostly no-till.
Maybe I was a bit reductive.
Sometimes i get scatterbrained and make oversimplified blanket statements.
Type of N makes a difference, as well as soil balance.
"Nitrate as a complementary ion promotes Ca uptake by plants."
Ammonium NH4 (like other cations Na, Mg, H & K) does depress Ca uptake, but less so at raised Ca levels.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01904168009362774?src=recsys

https://journals.lww.com/soilsci/Citation/1961/01000/INFLUENCE_OF_NITROGEN_ON_UPTAKE_OF_CALCIUM.12.aspx
 
http://www.cannagardening.com/interactions_between_nutrients

And here's a less scholarly source without citations.

"When in the form of ammonium, NH4+, nitrogen interacts negatively with the plants uptake of calcium, magnesium and potassium, particularly when the NO3- (nitrate)/NH4+ (ammonium) ratio is low."

I agree with you regarding continued N fertilization.
You challenge the following claims about N/K agonistic relationship potential effect on flowering?

"Fruit contains an abundance of potassium, and it is therefore essential to ensure a proper supply of potassium during generative periods. Yet regardless of how much potassium there is, if the ratio to nitrogen is too low, this can lead to a reduction in flower formation and plants with many vegetative parts (leaves and branches) and few generative parts (flowers and fruit)."
 
So, that clarification is better, and fits more with my understanding.
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Ammonium is typically from animal waste, and animal waste is typically not used strictly - but rather in conjunction with nitrates - because of potentially antagonistic relationships with several elements. I did not realize (or may have forgotten) that one was calcium, I thought that it was magnesium.  Nevertheless, the point stands.  Most of us don't fertilize strictly with animal manures, but if we do, then yes, absolutely, you want to up the amount of available/soluble calcium to offset the issue. (it's the chlorides that really cause the problem - you need calcium to displace them)  Also, ammonium in quantity is considered toxic to plants.  Another reason that it's cut with Nitrates.
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To clarify my statements about N/K - K is the ONLY nutrient that a plant uses that isn't assimilated, but flows freely in the plant sap.  It is, in some plants, subject to "luxury consumption".  That is, the plant may take in reserve stores that aren't immediately used.  However, this doesn't mean that we can overload to infinity. (Potassium locks out, too)  When plants are smaller, they don't use all the K we give them. (at least not right away)  We don't need to "supercharge".  We just need to make sure that it gets enough.  In fact, for soil crops/commercial ag, it's kind of a known thing that potassium uptake is higher during the initial growth stages, than during fruit/grain development.  Something like 80 percent of the potassium is taken up prior to fruit set, with the rest being utilized thereafter. 
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By the way, the vast majority of K is utilized by the plant, not the fruit.
 
 
If i was going to add anything to a soil i THINK already has enough nitrogen it would be a mix of seaweed and humic acid. Every time ive introduced seaweed into a growing equation ive seen very positive results.
 
This one ships from northern Cali and looks very affordable as far as liquid versions go.
https://www.groworganic.com/pvfs-organic-liquid-kelp-gallon.html
 
Kelp meal by comparison will set you back over $80/50lbs or close to $50/25lbs.
 
Kelp meal does tend to run about $2/lb.  However, I prefer solids to liquids in this case, as there are beneficial molds and fungi that colonize the kelp meal, and you don't really get that effect from liquids.  When kelp meal is reconstituted, and begins to ferment, it gets a nice fuzzy white beard.  For me, that's important, because it tells me that it keeps working for awhile.
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https://www.amazon.com/Root-Naturally-Kelp-Meal-Pounds/dp/B010CY3WMG/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&qid=1531672633&sr=8-6&keywords=kelp+meal&dpID=511-BsiQOYL&preST=_SY300_QL70_&dpSrc=srch
 
As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases.
What I was trying to say up there, was that despite the price difference, I do believe that kelp meal is a bit more cost effective.  And a little goes a long way.  I bought one of those 5 lb bags like 3 seasons ago, and it's not even half empty.  And I grow all year round, so that's a pretty good return on my investment, I think.
 
Maxicrop kelp meal feeding recommendations
 
Potted Plants:
Add 1 Tbsp per gallon of premium potting soil or 1/2 cup per 1 cubic foot. Mix well and water thoroughly.
Garden Beds:
Broadcast 5lbs per 1,000 square feet prior to planting and work into the soil. Water thoroughly after application
 
So yes its very affordable vs liquid options.
 
 
Ed, if you suspect too much N, is there a chance that you could put in a heavy vegetative ground cover around your pepper plants?  Also, not to be overlooked, is putting down sawdust or wood chips.
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If yours really is a problem with lots of N, it's a very good problem to have.  I actually never thought that I'd have to entertain the idea of tapering down sequestered soil Nitrogen.
 
Solid's point: Kelp meal has the benefit of steady microbial activity, whereas if you read the product label for this liquid product it says its enzymatically produced microbe food and humic acid.
With the liquid feed you have the advantage of nutrient timing. Considering kelp contains tons of gibberelins that promote rooting as well as stretch.
Also, quicker delivery liquid will take effect on plants' root systems sooner, which means better nutrient uptake and more heat tolerance.
 
whereas if you read the product label for this liquid product it says its enzymatically produced microbe food and humic acid
 
Click to expand...
 
Thats what caught my eye about this one. The addition of humic acid is a very nice bonus too. Plus the price is pretty good for a liquid kelp product.
 
solid7 said:
I just figured if one wants immediate effect, you make a tea with the kelp meal, and then use the remnant solids as a top dress.
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True... true.

lek said:
add carbon
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Increasing the C:N ratio is a smart long-term approach.

hogleg said:
If you don't have top mulch I suggest doing a 2" layer of rice hulls
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I've never seen rice hulls used as mulch.
 
Thanks for starting this post Edmick. I also was considering such a post. I also have vigorous good strong green growth on large over-wintered plants, but due to a heat wave and hot winds early in the season I lost all flowers with none producing at this time. Monsoons came and temps lowered, so I thought we might have a chance at some blooms. I added Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0 two weeks ago and plants seem to like it, but still no start of any flowers. Cheap Soil Test (the ones with the plastic colored containers and colored pills) was Adequate to just below High Nitrogen, High phosphorus (good right?) Adequate Potash. PH 6.8. There is such a short growing season where I’m at compared to when I was in Southern California I fear I will end up with another non productive year. Also in So Cal I used and did everything the same and had numerous pods throughout the season. I never thought I would have to learn how to grow peppers all over again. Seaweed or Kelp meal Fert sounds promising. Great info going on here, I will be tuning in. Thanks
 
 
SL3 said:
High phosphorus (good right?) 
Click to expand...
 
No, not really.  Almost all soils in the continental US contain adequate phosphorus for growing, without addition.  The exception being those which have losses, due to commercial ag.  High phosphorus doesn't buy you anything.  You just need to have normal amounts.  To put it another way...  you can't look at 2 crops with adequate and high phosphorus, and say, "wow, that high phosphorus crop looks way better than that adequate phosphorus crop". (without a lot of other qualification, anyway)
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Bone meal is just an easy way for rendering plants to make a premium off of their waste products, instead of having them hauled off. (which would cost them money)  It takes YEARS for that stuff to break down, and there are pathogen concerns with it.
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As regards the kelp and seaweed...  What we really want out of amendments, is enzymes, proteins, hormones, etc.  N's, P's, and K's is the easy part.  I am trying to do a bit more of an extensive search on plant hormones, and where they're found in a readily usable form.
 
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