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soil This is how the Earth creates soil.
- Thread starter windchicken
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I read it and found there to be some interesting stuff in there. I wish they talked more about their techniques and the underlying science though. They basically talk about it being the solution to slowing down Africa's desertification problems, but don't offer any real evidence to back up their position other than a few vague claims. Since there are a lot of Maple trees around my house, I'm going to look into this more. Thanks for sharing Windchicken!
Thanks for reading that...I know it's long and scientific, not exactly an easy read. And you are right about the paucity of information on practical application. There is another, much shorter, article by the same team which talks more practically about how to use the wood chips:
http://www.sbf.ulava...g_soils_98.html
Your skepticism is understandable, and certainly I don't expect any of the growers here to accept these findings at face value. The paper I linked to does seek to make relevant to the world at large the crucial link between hardwood forests and soil fertility, but it stops short of completely "generalizing the specific," as good science should...Certainly there is much more work to be done...
For me, personally, I took a circuitous route to this information, and how I got there doesn't really matter. I will try, however, to give you my view of it, as a Southern gardener growing in the exhausted soil of a broad alluvial valley:
In my area there are several large valleys that are and have been historically important agricultural basins—The two I know the best are the Ouachita River valley of NE Louisiana and the Red River valley of NW Louisiana. I mention the Ouachita valley because as a child I walked alone there in the only virgin hardwood forest I have ever known: pillar-straight oaks towering 80-100 feet over a pool-table-level floor, carpeted with a thick, aromatic layer of rotting leaves and branches. Twilight dimness in the middle of the day, almost perfect silence, but a sense of massive space, like a Gothic cathedral...
Okay, enough with the prose...
When the cotton gin was invented in the 1780s and King Cotton swept across the South in the 1820s and 1830s these forests were cut down wholesale as planters exploited the millennia-old rich soil. The resulting harvests were massive enough to build a regional economic empire which, for a time, supplied over a third of the world's cotton. After only a few years the earth was exhausted and the growers either moved on to other valleys, or began using manure or chemical fertilizers in an attempt to replenish the spent ground. How was this not slash-and-burn agriculture, albeit on a much larger scale? This is where we are today with farming. We are taught in school that alluvial valleys are fertile because of the river-borne sediments, but that is only part of the story.
The point Prof. Lemieux's paper does make, and well, I think, is that although the normal practice of amending soil with manure and fertilizer is effective on a temporary, superficial, basis, it neglects other crucial components of healthy soil. Soil lacking ramial hardwood, although capable of growing healthy plants, is far more likely to host problems that could easily be prevented. For example, in my area heirloom tomato plants grown in sand and manure, without hardwood chips, will always succumb to the Southern Root Knot Nematode. Gardeners around here are fond of saying "My tomato vines always burn up around the middle of July." What they don't know is that their plants can't get enough water because their roots are completely knotted up and impervious with the wormy pests. Breeders have given us nematode-resistant varieties of tomatoes and chiles, but that ignores the real problem.
So—practical application of this knowledge—I'm still real new at gardening, and certainly I'm a newbie on this board, but I have been using shredded hardwood in 3 different in-ground gardens since 2009, with good results. Whether I'm growing in sand, clay, or varying amounts of both, I mix in plenty of shredded hardwood, up to 50%, before I form up the rows. In clay I will use more to increase porosity and permeability. If it is new, uncultivated ground, I will use commercial gardening soil in a "pod" around each plant, because it takes at least one year for the shredded hardwood to begin producing all its wonderful chemical and biological agents. Also, and this is critical, raw hardwood sucks a huge amount of nitrogen from the soil as it decomposes. In the beginning I lost many plants to "nitrogen starvation." So now in the first year I amend heavily with Osmocote 14-14-14 pellets. Finally, I "coat" the rows with a thick (3-4 inches) layer of straight shredded hardwood, forming channels along the the tops to facilitate uniform water distribution.
I hope I wasn't too windy, but I feel strongly that this information needs to be shared with anyone and everyone who grows anything at all, but especially those who grow food. Here are a couple of photos of my 2011 garden:
http://www.sbf.ulava...g_soils_98.html
Your skepticism is understandable, and certainly I don't expect any of the growers here to accept these findings at face value. The paper I linked to does seek to make relevant to the world at large the crucial link between hardwood forests and soil fertility, but it stops short of completely "generalizing the specific," as good science should...Certainly there is much more work to be done...
For me, personally, I took a circuitous route to this information, and how I got there doesn't really matter. I will try, however, to give you my view of it, as a Southern gardener growing in the exhausted soil of a broad alluvial valley:
In my area there are several large valleys that are and have been historically important agricultural basins—The two I know the best are the Ouachita River valley of NE Louisiana and the Red River valley of NW Louisiana. I mention the Ouachita valley because as a child I walked alone there in the only virgin hardwood forest I have ever known: pillar-straight oaks towering 80-100 feet over a pool-table-level floor, carpeted with a thick, aromatic layer of rotting leaves and branches. Twilight dimness in the middle of the day, almost perfect silence, but a sense of massive space, like a Gothic cathedral...
Okay, enough with the prose...
When the cotton gin was invented in the 1780s and King Cotton swept across the South in the 1820s and 1830s these forests were cut down wholesale as planters exploited the millennia-old rich soil. The resulting harvests were massive enough to build a regional economic empire which, for a time, supplied over a third of the world's cotton. After only a few years the earth was exhausted and the growers either moved on to other valleys, or began using manure or chemical fertilizers in an attempt to replenish the spent ground. How was this not slash-and-burn agriculture, albeit on a much larger scale? This is where we are today with farming. We are taught in school that alluvial valleys are fertile because of the river-borne sediments, but that is only part of the story.
The point Prof. Lemieux's paper does make, and well, I think, is that although the normal practice of amending soil with manure and fertilizer is effective on a temporary, superficial, basis, it neglects other crucial components of healthy soil. Soil lacking ramial hardwood, although capable of growing healthy plants, is far more likely to host problems that could easily be prevented. For example, in my area heirloom tomato plants grown in sand and manure, without hardwood chips, will always succumb to the Southern Root Knot Nematode. Gardeners around here are fond of saying "My tomato vines always burn up around the middle of July." What they don't know is that their plants can't get enough water because their roots are completely knotted up and impervious with the wormy pests. Breeders have given us nematode-resistant varieties of tomatoes and chiles, but that ignores the real problem.
So—practical application of this knowledge—I'm still real new at gardening, and certainly I'm a newbie on this board, but I have been using shredded hardwood in 3 different in-ground gardens since 2009, with good results. Whether I'm growing in sand, clay, or varying amounts of both, I mix in plenty of shredded hardwood, up to 50%, before I form up the rows. In clay I will use more to increase porosity and permeability. If it is new, uncultivated ground, I will use commercial gardening soil in a "pod" around each plant, because it takes at least one year for the shredded hardwood to begin producing all its wonderful chemical and biological agents. Also, and this is critical, raw hardwood sucks a huge amount of nitrogen from the soil as it decomposes. In the beginning I lost many plants to "nitrogen starvation." So now in the first year I amend heavily with Osmocote 14-14-14 pellets. Finally, I "coat" the rows with a thick (3-4 inches) layer of straight shredded hardwood, forming channels along the the tops to facilitate uniform water distribution.
I hope I wasn't too windy, but I feel strongly that this information needs to be shared with anyone and everyone who grows anything at all, but especially those who grow food. Here are a couple of photos of my 2011 garden:
Pepper-Guru
Extreme Member
Yep. Lots of folks try and disregard soil health completely, then ask everyone "whats wrong with my plant?". 
Incorporating, and admending your soil with hardwoods and other organic materials is essential for the food web. Residual buildup of un natural fertilizers will garauntee soil food web death. Good read ! 
I love your garden by the way Chicken... I dig your style
Incorporating, and admending your soil with hardwoods and other organic materials is essential for the food web. Residual buildup of un natural fertilizers will garauntee soil food web death. Good read ! I love your garden by the way Chicken... I dig your style
Most peppers i know of originated in a forest environment. I would imagine a forest like soil would be incredibly benificial to the plants health.
Thanks for the long and informative reply Windchicken. Your garden looks great! The article you just posted answers a lot of the questions I had. I was wondering if Instead of amending the soil with fresh wood chips that initially deplete the nitrogen levels, you could 'compost' them for a year. Have you seen any info on how long your soil remains fertile after you apply the wood chips? I know it depends a lot on whether what you're growing is a heavy feeder, but is adding the chips something you'd need to do after every harvest. It seems like if you have the room, the best method would be to get a harvest from a plot, add hard wood chips in the fall, grow a grass or cereal the following year, followed by vegetables the year after and repeat that cycle.
I will start a new bed with pretty much just what i have around, it usually goes something like this... a layer of newspaper, I kinda like cardboard more since the worm s seem to love crawling through the corrugations... Then depending the time of year, grass clippings that are dry already, or leaves if it's in the fall. i like maple leaves the best, since they break down so much quicker than oak. I then usually have enough lake weeds and algae scum from keeping the swimmin' hole cleaned out, free as well. I also love the fact it's wet and heavy causing the grass or leaves to compact in a few days. I usually use composted horse manure, since that's whats available to me for free as well, other than pickin it up. If I want to plant right away, I will dig a 3 gallon hole or so and fill with potting mix, since everything is still raw in the bed. I do amend heavily with algae and hydrilla and such, cover with cardboard between plants, and the worms make short work of it. I also love to add maple chips, with oak second, and since my buddie has a tree service, if he is cupping down a big maple, I will bring out my trailer and shoot the chips in there. The whole trick is letting nature take it's course, in no time the worms will move in and you will see a dramatic reduction in volume, and i just keep adding to it. It's light, airy, a ton of castings and such, and very rich. i like the maple chips cuz the fungus filaments will grow like crazy just under the surface of them breaking them down quickly as well. Thats my story and I'm stickin to it.
Yep. Lots of folks try and disregard soil health completely, then ask everyone "whats wrong with my plant?".
I love your garden by the way Chicken... I dig your style
Thanks, Guru! I didn't know how this information would be received...But I can't shake the thought that it needs to be out there. Probably the guys on this board will get sick of my harping on it, but, as you say, it's essential to keeping the world fed, which seems kind of important to me.
I'm looking forward to watching your 2012 Grow!
That's cool, yeah I never really thought about it that way. There's an old guy up the hill from me that grows in almost total shade...His Cayenne plants are massive!
Thanks again for reading! I believe the hardwood chips are good for about three years before more need to be added. However, I add some more every season, because I always lose some to erosion, weeding, animal damage, etc.
I believe that composted mulch is somewhat effective, but the idea, as I understand it, is that the wood needs to decay in place, because there are biologic strata that need to develop over time as the wood rots. It is apparently important not to disturb these strata once they are established, a point I left out of my little narrative. It's hard for me to not want to turn the soil over before I plant...I have to admit I've not been able to resist it yet, but this year I believe I will have the nice soil horizion in place.
I like your idea of a cycle of cover crops as the soil develops in preparation for the chile planting, with other vegetable crops in between. I was hoping someone else would take this information and run with it, as my understanding of it is very simplistic. I look forward to seeing your garden!
Sweet! Now that's how you do it! I have a big ugly brushpile at the end of my driveway that I have accumulated over the years by collecting the pecan branches that fall in my yard. I know my neighbors hate it, but it's pure gold to me! Now I just need a chipper...Man I would love to have access to bulk amounts of wood chips like you do...Hauling those bags from Lowe's gets real old and pretty expensive. I love seeing all those fungus filaments in the soil...and it's so good to know there are others out there like me.
Hi Jamie!
Good to hear from ya, and thanks especially for looking at the information about hardwood chips. I guess you've figured out how important this is to me...
Lowe's seems to buy those chips from first one supplier and then another...I'm guessing it's whoever gives them the best price. The bags I have now are labeled "Happi-Grow" I believe, but any raw hardwood chips should be good. Or if you have a truck or a trailer that would haul chips, most towns of any size seem to have landscaping supplies who sell wood chips in bulk, for way cheaper than Lowe's. Of course the best scenario of all would be if you had a friend with a landscaping service who would just bring them to your house for free, or if you had your own chipper and some land with plenty of oak trees...DR has a nice chipper, but it's kind of expensive.
Good to hear from ya, and thanks especially for looking at the information about hardwood chips. I guess you've figured out how important this is to me...
Lowe's seems to buy those chips from first one supplier and then another...I'm guessing it's whoever gives them the best price. The bags I have now are labeled "Happi-Grow" I believe, but any raw hardwood chips should be good. Or if you have a truck or a trailer that would haul chips, most towns of any size seem to have landscaping supplies who sell wood chips in bulk, for way cheaper than Lowe's. Of course the best scenario of all would be if you had a friend with a landscaping service who would just bring them to your house for free, or if you had your own chipper and some land with plenty of oak trees...DR has a nice chipper, but it's kind of expensive.
Watch out getting chips from your local city/town. Locally here they shred tree and lumber alike. It will have nails, paint, and all the other additives that general scrap wood will have in it.
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Call any tree service, they love to get rid of it...
Thanks, Woody. I've had the experience of getting weird crap in bulk mulch: big chunks of metal, plastic sheeting, etc. I don't use those folks any more.
Sweet! I got behind one of those trucks the other day, pulling a chipper, and loaded down with wood chips...I figured they sold it to the one of the mulch yards...
Thanks for the great info, windchicken. I'm late to this thread, but this is right up my alley. For the last year, I've been trying to turn my hard clay soil into an organic wonderland. This has involved digging holes and throwing in cardboard, newspaper, coffee grounds, unfinished compost, leaves, and old t-shirts and jeans (shredded.)
The info in this thread has made me want to incorporate woodchips in the mix.
Here's the thing:
A few months ago, my Dad bought 20 bags of Earthgro Bark Nuggets to use as mulch around the yard (we're converting our front lawn into a native plant garden.) From what I've been reading, this product is the combination of different (unspecified) trees.
Here's what I would love some input on:
Should I use these 'nuggets' as you would wood chips in the windchicken's example above?
The info in this thread has made me want to incorporate woodchips in the mix.
Here's the thing:
A few months ago, my Dad bought 20 bags of Earthgro Bark Nuggets to use as mulch around the yard (we're converting our front lawn into a native plant garden.) From what I've been reading, this product is the combination of different (unspecified) trees.
Here's what I would love some input on:
Should I use these 'nuggets' as you would wood chips in the windchicken's example above?
Pash, thanks so much for your interest in rebuilding soil with hardwood chips, and welcome to THP!
Your soil contains a fair amount of silt and clay—How well does it drain? If you were to fill one of those holes up with water, would it drain empty in 30 minutes or so? The reason I'm asking is because chile plants really don't like to have their "feet" wet. If your soil is like mine—it doesn't drain quickly—you may want to consider building high rows or raised beds. Wood chips help with soil permeability, but a hole full of wood chips dug into impermeable soil still won't drain...
You look like you are on the right track—I would go ahead and try the bark nuggets to see what happens. A suggestion, however—and this would be a good experiment for all us growers to learn from—Try growing some of the same chiles varieties side-by-side, some of them with the bark nuggets, and some with actual shredded hardwood. One of the crucial benefits of ramial hardwood, according to the studies, are the molds and fungi that grow only on that specific type of wood. I would love to know the results of such a side-by-side grow.
This is fun to me—Now I actually seek out spots in my garden with high clay content, because it contains way more minerals than pure sand, which is chemically inert. Also, clay is much lighter than sand, so there isn't so much weight on the deeper roots. The problem with clay is the poor porosity and permeability, but any grower who is building soil as he should, by adding plenty of chipped hardwood, has already solved that problem!
Good luck on your grow! I'll be interested to watch your progress...
Your soil contains a fair amount of silt and clay—How well does it drain? If you were to fill one of those holes up with water, would it drain empty in 30 minutes or so? The reason I'm asking is because chile plants really don't like to have their "feet" wet. If your soil is like mine—it doesn't drain quickly—you may want to consider building high rows or raised beds. Wood chips help with soil permeability, but a hole full of wood chips dug into impermeable soil still won't drain...
You look like you are on the right track—I would go ahead and try the bark nuggets to see what happens. A suggestion, however—and this would be a good experiment for all us growers to learn from—Try growing some of the same chiles varieties side-by-side, some of them with the bark nuggets, and some with actual shredded hardwood. One of the crucial benefits of ramial hardwood, according to the studies, are the molds and fungi that grow only on that specific type of wood. I would love to know the results of such a side-by-side grow.
This is fun to me—Now I actually seek out spots in my garden with high clay content, because it contains way more minerals than pure sand, which is chemically inert. Also, clay is much lighter than sand, so there isn't so much weight on the deeper roots. The problem with clay is the poor porosity and permeability, but any grower who is building soil as he should, by adding plenty of chipped hardwood, has already solved that problem!
Good luck on your grow! I'll be interested to watch your progress...
Thanks, I've been interested in, but am not well versed in creating a soil food web. When I was digging the holes, some spots did not drain well at all. Nine of my plants are going into a raised bed, but at least six plants will go in the clay soil. I like the suggestion of high rows. I planted Fava beans as a cover crop and added a bunch of organic matter to the soil, but haven't doe a whole lot to improve drainage. I have added pearlite, but sporadically.
I like the idea of this experiment, unfortunately I've double dug all of my growing are, throwing different material in the ground each time (pearlite in some cases). I don't have a section of untouched clay in order to make the results meaningful. I think I'm going to try to get some hardwood chips to incorporate into the soil, and use the bark as mulch. Thanks for the great feedback!
That sounds excellent.
I always try to incorporate some of the native ground into my high rows, especially if it's very clayey, because of the high mineral content of all clays.
Please take plenty of photos for us here on THP. Every bit of info is valuable, especially for the in-ground growers!
I always try to incorporate some of the native ground into my high rows, especially if it's very clayey, because of the high mineral content of all clays.
Please take plenty of photos for us here on THP. Every bit of info is valuable, especially for the in-ground growers!
Will do, Windchicken!
I wanted to bump this, as it related to another discussion Gary and I were having elsewhere. I thought it was worth revisiting again for some new eyeballs, and perhaps some additional input/ideas/thoughts from some fresh blood.