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Tomato Questions #01

huntsman

huntsman

Hi y'all!


  • What is the difference between an heirloom and 'normal/common' tomato?
  • Are heirlooms freely available for sale/swap?
  • Are heirlooms better to plant for some reason?
  • Are most growers planting heirlooms?
  • If so, is it exclusively heirlooms or do you mix them?
  • Do heirlooms cross-pollinate like peppers?
Yeah, I'm new...:oops:
 
Heirlooms are tomatos(or any other fruit/veg) that have been growing for many generations and seeds are usually easy to find these days. They are better because they usually have great flavors and are not bred for perfect looks or for better shipping etc, but are continously grown because they taste great and grow well.
Most growers who appreciate great taste will grow heirlooms but many still like the more productive tasteless hybrids, and yes they will cross pollinate, just not as freely as peppers do

Edit: I forgot to mention that there are some tastey hybrids as well as lots of great open-pollinated varieties that don't qualify as heirlooms
 
Thanks POTAWIE!

When you mention 'tasteless' hybrids, I get the feeling that these are grown for quantity (perhaps to re-sell) , whereas Heirlooms are actually sought after?
 
Hybrids are grown for a variety of reasons: uniform shape and size, one-pick types, shelf life, disease tolerance, overall size, grow media, etc..

Not all hybrids are tasteless anymore than all heirlooms are delicious, though taste is on the tongue of the beholder!

Mike
 
I'd have to disagree Wordwiz, heirlooms have been passed on for generations usually because they taste great where hybrids are bred for many purposes, and taste usually isn't one of them. Once you try your first heirloom, you won't ever want a store bought tomato again. Taste is on the tongue of the beholder, and that's why people will often pay more for better tasting heirloom types

Edit:Another point is that hybrids require more fertilizer and water than open pollinated varieties
 
Potawie,

I've munched on an heirloom tomato or two over the years! All the ones in my garden are heirlooms, and there are seven varieties. I've also ate hybrids and some of them are just as good or even better than some heirlooms.

Mike
 
You're right, its not common but there are some good tasting hybrids. I love sungolds but this year I'm trying an open pollinated sungold type, and am hoping its as good or better than the hybrid. No more hybrid tomatos for me unless this new sungold really sucks.
 
As for the pollination question, tomato flowers are constructed differently and will self pollinate if left to their own devices. It is possible for an insect to cross pollinate neighboring tomatoes if it gets there early enough, but generally speaking, they get there too late.
 
Potawie,

I'm trying some hybrids to raise in the greenhouse. Only a couple of each but they are Cabernet, Mira, Sacramento, Florida 91 and IT-06-313. Some are greenhouse varieties (but do well in the garden also), some are disease tolerant, especially the Mira, IT and Florida.

I know you don't base a general dislike of hybrids on their taste (not as many as you grow) but I think a lot of people do because of how store-bought (almost always hybrids) taste - like cardboard! Picked green, gas-ripened, cooled - everything wrong the producers can do!

I remember when I first moved to "the big city" and been eating store tomatoes for 10 months - I got use to their taste. Then I went back to Ripley to help dad hoe tobacco and afterward had a ripe tomato from his garden (it was a hybrid - Best Boy or something) but wow - what a difference. Ditto for tomato juice. I had only drank the canned stuff from Thriftway for a couple of years, then raised a couple of plants, enough to get maybe three quarts of juice. Once again, I had forgotten what the real stuff tastes like.

This is why I try to preserve 100 quarts of juice and 24 quarts of whole tomatoes each year, though if the GH growing works, I won't need the whole toms.

Of course, it isn't just tomatoes - I can say the same thing about green beans, lettuce, carrots and potatoes. It's not just a perception though. Go to the store and buy a bag of the newest spuds they have. Dig up some from the garden and find two that are the same size. Try cutting them with a knife.

This is why I love gardening, that, and I know what goes into my plants.

Mike
 
Ciao Huntsman-

Heirlooms are becoming more popular as more and more people are starting to seek out flavour over convenience and perfect round red tomatoes. Farmers at farmers markets are carrying more and more of them as the demand grows and people who used to grow nothing but perennial flowers are now starting to grow their own food. I'm noticing a trend reverting back to the days of the WWII victory gardens when people who hadn't ever had a garden before were growing their own food out of necessity because of a poor war-time economy. In addition, consumers are becoming much more educated about the food they eat and are demanding more organic produce. When they can't find that at the grocery store, they're starting to do it themselves in their own gardens, growing organically without any pesticides. Genetically-modified food is another scary thought. People don't want frankenfood, so consumers are becoming increasingly picky about what they're eating.

I've heard a significant amount of boo-hooing over whether heirlooms are hardy or not hardy, more or less prone to diseases and I can tell you that, at least from my experience and the 60-70 plants I grow every year that hybrids are no more or less vigorous than the heirlooms I grow. I truly do not see a difference between hybrids and heirlooms. That being said, I DO see differences between varieties, whether heirloom OR hybrid. Some varieties when grown side by side in the same soil with the same climate at the same time just don't perform well while their neighbour will be totally loaded up and lose nary a blossom over the entire season.

As far as cross-pollination rates, I've heard the consensus quoting about 5% without bagging blossoms or isolating plants. Toronto is humid in the summer and I've tried to bag or cover the blossom clusters to prevent bees from mixing pollen, but it doesn't work here. The bags increase the humidity, the pollen grains stick together, and the flower abcisses or falls off. What I do instead is harvest the very first ripe fruits of every variety for seed. The first fruits have the best chances of being self-pollinated before the bee populations are large enough to be a factor, so the chances of crossing are also minimal.
 
Sorellina,

It's great to have the one who ranks close to, if not the queen to tomato growing adding her knowledge. And I mean that a a compliment.

But I need to add some anecdotal evidence about why heirlooms are becoming popular. First, though, I will add that at least in my area, there are many more people growing their own veggies this year, which seems to be a nationwide trend. The last stats I read said that backyard gardens have increased by 28 percent over the last three years.

Anyway, about heirlooms - it has become the late '90s buzzword, like "staycation." Not so much much among experienced growers, but over the last two years, I'm amazed at the number of people who say they only buy heirlooms, I ought to grow heirlooms, is this an heirloom tomato before they buy the plant. It's like - well, if this is an heirloom, it must be great. That's BS - Belgium Giant is an heirloom and it tastes like crap. all it was good for was getting lots of juice!

But in selling plants I did notice that lots of people who did not buy from me was because I didn't have the plants they've been growing, their parents grew, and their grandparents grew. Conversely, my biggest seller was Siletz (which is an heirloom, though it has only been around for about 30 years, max) but no one knew it. I sold it as an very early-season variety, with fruit that is 8-10 ounces, has very few seeds. The people I have talked with that have ate the fruit claim it is one of the best tasting maters they have ever had.

To add to the confusion, there are lots of Russian tomatoes that are classified as Heirloom but aren't. Seed traders/collectors *presumed and believed* they had been grown for decades only to learn they were genetic mutants Russian scientists developed to grow in their conditions.

My advice is for anyone who wants to grow tomatoes is to start with ones the vast majority of people highly recommend plus add one or two types that sound interesting. Research the plant and its ideal growing conditions - what grows great in Ohio may flop in Georgia or Texas - heirloom or not!

Mike
 
Thanks, everyone!

A lot of valuable info here ~

How would one tell if an Heirloom is actually an heirloom?

Are some more valuable than others?

Is there a big difference in price between Hybrids and heirlooms?
 
If they are sold in grocery stores and are blemish free, then they are likely not heirlooms. If you buy them from a farmer's market then there is a good chance there will be heirlooms. They are probably a little more expensive, but well worth it in my opinion. There is also more chance that they are organically grown
Here's one good sites with many heirloom tomatoes
http://store.tomatofest.com/Heirloom_Tomato_Seeds_s/1.htm
 
wordwiz said:
Hybrids are grown for a variety of reasons: uniform shape and size, one-pick types, shelf life, disease tolerance, overall size, grow media, etc..

Not all hybrids are tasteless anymore than all heirlooms are delicious, though taste is on the tongue of the beholder!

Mike
Click to expand...

Not all hybrids are tasteless
Not all heirlooms are delicious,
Hybrids can be delicious!
W.W.W.S. "What would Willard say?"
 
Thanks for the link, POTAWIE. Sadly, Farmers' Markets are scarcer than honest politicians here, and even Greengrocers are folding to supermarket chains. I honestly doubt heirlooms are available in SA, so importing seeds will be the best option.
 
To be more specific, there are actually 3(or 4) classifications for heirlooms: Commercial heirloom, family heirloom, deliberately created heirloom, and the "mystery group" which come from natural(not deliberate) cross between two varieties
 
Awp! Which of these are the ones to go for? Family? My guess is you're going to say it depends on what you want from the tom, right? :lol:;)
 
You most likely want family heirloom types although some would argue that to be true family heirlooms they must have been passed down from generation to generation.
Commercial heirlooms are varieties introduced to the public before 1940 and many of the current hybrids are derived from these old varieties.
 
huntsman,

I found the best way is to try a few varieties and see what pleases your taste. Everyone raved about the Cherokee Purple and how great it was - I grew three plants last year and they were a waste of garden space. I've also read how lousy Siletz is suppose to be but found it rates among my favorite toms.

Mike
 
If you weren't in South Africa then I'd suggest checking out a seedsavers exchange. They not only have a large selection of vegetable varieties, but since many people offer the same varieties, you can choose a source that was grown close to you or in a similar environment to your own.
 
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