Too much Lactic acid production?

[Datil Patch]

Alright my 1st 3 mashes were aparantly successful, they all smell sweet, fruity and hot. My last 2 developed a rotten egg smell and they went into the compost pile.

My problem or concern is that the 3 successfull ones (datil, bhut, 7pot) all have that same sweetish taste which I am guessing is from the lactic acid. All 3 are sub 4pH. I would like to keep future ferments natural and not ad any vinagre, or alternate acidifiers like lime juice. Is there a way for them to be less lactic-y, still be below 4pH, and have more natural pepper flavor?

Adiitional info: the first 3 used live culture from Oikos yogurt. The last 2(the ones that failed) used live/active cold stored probiotics (LAB) culture from the health food store. All were processed with 6% pickling salt by weight per the canning docs from the USDA

 

[RocketMan]

With out knowing what the ingredient list is I deal with fermentation in general. If you feel like your getting too much lactic acid in the sauce try reducing the amount of sugars your fermenting. The more sugars there are for the bacteria to eat the more lactic acid there will be produced. For instance if your ingredients are peppers, onion, carrots and garlic, leaving out the carrots will reduce the sugars a great deal. As for your starter did you see any action from the ones you started with the probiotics? I haven't tried using them as I have great success just using the yogurt whey and sourdough starter hooch. If the fermentation was active and then went bad after the active fermentation was over I'd look at the environment where you kept. Like was the temperature too high or was there something wrong with the container used that allowed air to get in.

Hope this helps.

RM

 

[Datil Patch]

Thanks. My ingredient list was/is simple. Datils, salt, starter. Bhuts, salt, starter. 7Pots, salt, starter. Rinse and repeat the first 2 for the onse that failed but the starter was live/active probiotics.

The 1st 3 were in qt mason jars, the last to were in gallon rubbermaids.

All began bubbling within a day or 2 of starting. All were in the kitchen at about 75F

 

[RocketMan]

Ok, the Gallon Rubbermaid may have been the culprit if they won’t seal up fully so that air can’t get in. Mason jars have a seal on the lid so stray sir cant get in, not so sure about the others. Also 75 is on the warm side of safe and could have been a contributor. I try to keep them in the 60 to 70 range, lower is better.

I would try the failed ones again but use the mason jars and see if they work. If so then you know what the problem was. Also you could use the containers that failed again but when the bubbling stops move them into the fridge and allow extra time. JMHO.

RM

 

[canuhover]

Hey Datil Patch,
I had similar problems. Three months ago I started 4 - 2 quart mason jars with some old beer bubblers corked into the top. Each one had different peppers with additional ingredients (the usual stuff, onion carrot ...). Two of them turned out great, flavor, smell, heat...etc. but the other 2 have white mold along the top and don't smell so good(picture below). Did your failures have white mold? I remember reading something about white mold being harmless.....

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/8945/img0352lr.jpg

 

[RocketMan]

Hey Canuhover, welcome to the forums. Actually what you have in your picture looks more like a yeast than mold. I've had that happen a couple of time and I just removed it and the sauce came out fine. If Chili Monsta happens to pop in, haven't seen him for a while though, he'll be able to give you a better assessment but that's how it looks to me.

RM

 

[canuhover]

Hey Canuhover, welcome to the forums. Actually what you have in your picture looks more like a yeast than mold. I've had that happen a couple of time and I just removed it and the sauce came out fine. If Chili Monsta happens to pop in, haven't seen him for a while though, he'll be able to give you a better assessment but that's how it looks to me.

RM

Thanks RM, I'll cook it up and give it a try. I used hooch from my Kimchee as a starter; do you know if it uses the same bacteria?

 

[RocketMan]

Yep they are all types of Lactobacillius

(null)

 

[Datil Patch]

On the successful ones the water/fluid that separated due to the salt, finished clear. On the failures it stayed hazy. All bubbled away. Never had any mold grow in any of them.

I would like to find a standard fermenter (critter, not container) that will do the job but not create such a lactic-y tangy flavor and hide/obsure the flavor of the peppers.

 

[RocketMan]

I really don't think your going to find a strain of LB that isn't going to give that to you. Instead, there are a couple of things you can play with that might help and would actually be a really interesting experiment. First, try running your fermentation at a lower temperature. Ideal range is around 80 to 98 degrees F. You might try running one at say 55 to 60 and see if the slower fermentation gives you less of that taste. Second thing you might try is only letting the fermentation run for half the time that it normally would. If your datils bubbled away for a week and a half try letting it go for 5 days and then making your sauce. The last thing to try would be to let them go for an extended period, say a year or more and see if the aging mellows the flavor out. If I can think of anything else I'll let you know.

 

[POTAWIE]

Fermenting should take away a lot of the sweet taste and replace it with a more sour complex flavor. Have you checked the pH to see how much lactic acid is actually being produced?

Edit: Sorry I should have read above that its below 4

 

[Balac]

I am a chemist and vintner and brewer for years and what you are asking to do---"find a bacteria the makes less acid"---is like asking to find a distiller that makes more alcohol.

It is counter to the process.

The sugars are the food used by the lacto-bacteria to make acids in the final production must. The only way to lessen the acid is to give them less sugars to consume and as indicated above carrots have a large sugar content and so leave them out. However since you are not fermenting carrots in the must then you can only do one thing to lower the sugars.

Ferment the must in two indepentant processes; get some brewer yeast and do a alcohol fermentation first and then add the lacto-bacteria to clean up what is left. The yeast will consume most the non-lactic sugars leaving only the lactic sugars. So the bacteria will have less food to convert. There will be a small amount of alcohol in the result depending on the ingrediants you used; like carrots.

Caution has to be used if you are going do a 2 stage fermentation because you can introduce "bad" bacteria into the must when you introduce the lacto-bacteria because you have to open up the container. Most of the the time this will not hurt but there is always a possibility of introducing the vinegar making bacteria and that will convert the alcohol you make into acid which you do not want.

As to your gal rubbermaids I would toss them. Use only sterilized glass with boiled peppers and additions inside and quickly introduce the yeast or bacterias after they have come down to 100 degrees. Rubber will hold bacteria on the walls and can not be sterilized well unless you do it chemically so it best to to just forget about using them. And as to temperatures warm is faster and cool is slower for sugar conversions in either yeast or bacteria processes. That is the only difference. So 80 degrees will take about 3-4 days for yeast to convert the sugars or at 60 degrees maybe 10 days---the last is only a guess. The lacto-bacteria should act the same way but not positive of that. The lactic conversion is really slow in any case so it will not make much difference at the end.

The cloudy water in the rubbermaid jugs indicated that there were alien organisms in your must. The good fermentation should be clear as was your first 3.

Luck
Balac

 

[RocketMan]

WOW, good call Balac, never even dawned on me to do a 2 stage ferment and as for what ever alcohol is produced will be cooked off in the final processing so total win. That said though DP your going to have to keep a sharp eye on the ph of your final sauce and find some other acid to use to pull it down to the target ph otherwise your going to have to put it directly into the fridge and use it with in say 30 to 60 days.

 

[Datil Patch]

Thanks Balzac, that is actually what i was looking for. Looks like I need to go chat with a brewing bio prof i know and his wife who worked as a chemist for Bacardi, for a little help.

 

[Wancho]

Hi! New to this forum.
But i have another way to lower the amounts of sugars in your mash: replace a certain amount of red peppers with green ones. Red peppers contain more sugars than green, unripe peppers. Theoretically this would also work, wouldn't it?

 

[RocketMan]

Hi Wancho and first off Welcome to THP!

In part yes however looking at the whole mash perhaps not really. If you were mashing only peppers then the answer would be yes but will using the green peppers change the flavor profile of your end product? A lot of mashers will mash all of the ingredients for a sauce together. In this situation then the answer would be yes also but not really enough to affect the amount of Lactic Acid produced because the main sources of the sugar in this mash is going to be the other ingredients, carrots, onion, etc...

 

[Wancho]

True, but Mr Datil Patch mentioned in this thread that he was only using peppers, salt and starter. The use of green peppers will alter the taste like you said, but maybe he would like this altered, less sweetish taste he was looking for.