chinense Trinidad Moruga Scorpion does not exist?

AJ Drew

AJ Drew

Per CARDI, there is no such pepper as the Moruga Scorpion.   Instead, they offer a Moruga Red and a Scorpion.  Trying to get a handle on which names are synonyms for these two, which names are variants of these two, and what peppers with similiar names are outside the scope of these peppers.

There are so many different names, some invented on the spot by various seed sellers to create a facade of exclusivity.  Other names evolving with language.  I am trying to connect the names to very well established names used by the various well recognized institutions.

Example:
What is the relationship between CARDI Scorpion Pepper and what CPI called Moruga Scorpion when they did the test in 2012? 

My guess is that what we call Moruga Scorpion started off with a small sample of dna from the CARDI Scorpion that might have become wider with accidental cross pollination and confusion with backyard and hobby growers selling seed. 

 
 
cruzzfish, I -think- what they are saying is that the Moruga Scorpion does not follow their accepted naming convention.  Problem there being there does not seem to be an acceptable naming convention.  Frankly, I -LOVE- dealing with CARDI and CPI seeds because you put that CARDI or CPI behind the name and you have a very good idea of what the seed is.  The naming convention of super hots is so wild that you almost need to put the name of the seed producer in with the name of the pepper to keep track these days.
 
You can find answers in this topic started months ago
 
http://thehotpepper.com/topic/52291-seven-pod-is-the-worlds-hottest-and-it-was-developed-by-amerindians/
 
Trinidad's original strains are:
 
- Scorpion
- Moruga (non superhot pepper)
- 7 Pod
 
Those 3 are recognized by CARDI. Trinidad Moruga Scorpion is a total different thing, may be a natural mutation found in Trinidad, but it's definitely not one of CARDI's landraces.

If you look at the pics posted by cmpman1974 the CARDI's Scorpion is totally different from the image we have made out of it (like the Butch T, for example).
 
And CARDI's 7 Pot are very similar to what we call Moruga Scorpion, or Brain Strain...
 
Guitarman, have read that thread and even tried to take notes / make a chart based on it.  I do not think the Scorpion by CARDI and the Moruga Scorpion measured by CPI are the same thing.  I am trying to figure out what the relationship is.  Maybe they were refined from the same common ancestor whose class had a wider dna range. 

One of these days we will have home dna science kits and we will be able to create a frigging flow chart.
 
I'm not overly concerned about CARDI or what they say or think or what people believe they mean.They are selling their product just like every other vendor...Lets say you are growing TS MORUGA RED this and right before harvest you want to call your pods and seeds Moruga peppers,that's fine and totally your business.If they are as good as JUDYS,WICKED MIKES,SADISTICS PEPPERS OR SMILEYGUYS OR IGNITES then job well done.
 
Mpicante, you make a very good point.  Still wildly curious about the dna link between these and many other lines. Would still love to know more about the landraces developed by aboriginal Americans.  However, for a point of growing and enjoying I am thinking that you are dead on balls accurate.  So much so that I wonder if we, as growers, should not connect the seed producer's name with the particular line of seeds and we as eaters should not do the same with pepper pods.

I know that when consumers get a really good tomato they associate the shop or grower with it rather than the name.
 
compmodder26 said:
The Moruga Scorpion was originally named "Trinidad Scorpion Moruga Blend".  I believe it was Jim Duffy that made the nomenclature of "Moruga Scorpion" popular when supplied the peppers to be tes
 
Click to expand...
Thank you much.  That explains part of the naming convention.
 
Chris Phillips was the first person to grow the Moruga Blend from seeds he received from a person that many of us know and owe are little hobby to. 
It has since been grown out with several selections taken from it and different names have been used to describe it.
Just my two cents.
 
wildseed57 said:
Chris Phillips was the first person to grow the Moruga Blend from seeds he received from a person that many of us know and owe are little hobby to. 
It has since been grown out with several selections taken from it and different names have been used to describe it.
Just my two cents.
Click to expand...
 
I put my two cents on Christopher Phillips too
 
wildseed57 said:
Chris Phillips was the first person to grow the Moruga Blend from seeds he received from a person that many of us know and owe are little hobby to. 
It has since been grown out with several selections taken from it and different names have been used to describe it.
Just my two cents.
Click to expand...
So then the term "Moruga Blend" describes a very wide genetic pool of which more narrow varieties have come.  I am going to go with the thing CARDI calls the Scorpion is likely from a larger genetic pool which included the Moruga Blend.
 
PexPeppers, I have wondered the same thing about the Carolina Reaper and the Primo and heard the same claim that they taste differently.  I attribute so much in the taste and heat department to how the peppers were grown, even the particular season, that I am thinking only dna testing will tell.

As far as I know, since the Red Savina none of the new super hots have demonstrated that they are unique enough for the Plant Variety Protection Act to protect.  So I am thinking many of them are very, very, very close in much more than appearance.
 
 
My ten cents:  it is bunk!
 
The Moruga Scorpion blah blah should actually be called 7 Pot Moruga - it is a 7 Pot (landrace) no doubt and the Moruga prefix can be attached to differentiate it from other 7 Pot introductions.
 
What CARDI calls a Scorpion is only disseminated as such by themselves and Semillas las Palmas.  My preliminary research (read: checking and comparing across vendors) shows that this particular entity is sold as 7 Pot Long.  The 7 Pot Long is in fact the Scorpion proper.  And before anybody jumps up and down and says what about the Butch T? (as a reference name for the thing we call a Scorpion) Well, I'm not advocating a name change. 
 
However if the Scottish National  Aberdeen Angus Registry told you that your things you call Aberdeen Angus were not then what would you make of that?  Having said that I accept the naming of the Trinidad Scorpion without hesitation (although I have read some news reports that the government of Trinidad is considering extracting commercial value from the use of the name by those not authorised to do so - sounds like an empty threat really).  I advocate the use of the name "CARDI Scorpion" for their pedigree-bred version.  It is the right thing to do.
 
As for the Moruga - it has been stated in earlier posts, it is a pedigree scotch bonnet developed by CARDI.  That is why they are up in arms about this Moruga Scorpion blah blah - because it dilutes the impact of their product.  Moruga is the name of a place in Trinidad and they have rights to the name.  Some twits might get confused and think the blah blah thing is one of CARDI's creations and plant them and market them in the Caribbean - heck even export them - it just muddles their commercial development.
 
So there you have it.  And please don'r bring all the bumf about JD and sending the stuff to the Chile Institute for testing etc etc etc.  I will put my best bits on a block that he himself didn't even know what was what.  Goodness me, if we all still debating the validity of these names and the entity they describe then how back then was he supposed to know what was what.  I for one don't think those tests prove anything - the sample size was too small.  Wanna do it again?  This time with further additions?  Only then will it have any credibility.
 
The Moruga Scorpion blah blah is actually a 7 Pot.  When Butch T received seeds from Alan Boatman of a thing that we now know as the 7 Pot Jonah it was labelled as the Jonah Scorpion! 
 
There is far too much sentimentality attached to the names we have appended to things - many of which are one and the same but hey, I got it from this guy who is the shiz, therefore it is something different .  This game has played itself out so many times before in so many other genres of horticulture.  The rapid acquisition of germplasm results in a boom and everybody has something "new".  I think of Tillandsia, cacti, orchids, Clivia, Lithops, Conophytum etc etc etc.  Eventually it all gets cut down to size when the market becomes more discerning and educated about what is what.  In the beginning it is always driven by the discoverers and the vendors.  In time the power shifts to the buyer.
 
hot stuff said:
Considering the genetics you can go to page 536 of this document.
http://www.chilepepperinstitute.org/content/files/trinidad_moruga_scorpion_pepper_hottest.pdf
Click to expand...
Page 526 of a 5 page document?  You are screwing with my head.

Robstar - What I did like about the test conducted by CPI is that they grew the peppers in the same condition.  I keep thinking about something someone at Hippie Seed (I think) said about how it is worm juice that makes their peppers that hot.  My personal take is that many of the super hots are so damn close in heat that how they are grown can make or break a record holder.
 
I doubt we will see the Guinness title change for some time.  They have adopted new rules just for the category, probably due to the shenanigans of late.  But I do think we will see valid tests which show many other peppers as hotter than the Carolina Reaper simply because at the top end of SHU some of them are really close and people are really trying to beat the record holder, they always are.  Well, except for the most cockroaches in your mouth title.
 
I think It's pretty crappy these days that almost ANY different pod that people grow is considered a NEW Strain or whatever.
LONG before it has been grown out in isolation for more than a season or 2.
 
See what 10yr. ago 7 pots or scorpions looked like,tasted like etc.
 
Now a pepper that resembles the pod it came from is considered as whatever, new strain,variety or hybrid.New Name.
 
Cardi was just posted as being WRONG?
Where did a LOT of people find their original 7's and scorpions from?
 
With the net. ,Ego comes into play along with selling seeds at high prices...
 
I'm not saying even a large portion of Vendors are con men.
 
Just enough people to get the clueless to feed their ego as (self proclaimed) experts on whatever pepper is cool at the time.
Popular opinion on the net RULES these days - as it did before.
 
Too many people ignore the people who,at the time were pioneers in finding every pepper they could get their hands on.World wide.
 
Chris,AND many others know their stuff.
Forgot more than most will know.
These days few have a clue as to what the worldwide varieties are,supers or whatever.
Varieties have been bred to conform to the wants of people these days for sales on the net.
 
An example is why did the original 7 pots and Scorpions look so similar?
Why do the popular ones look like Bonnets?
 
I'm SURE all I have seeds for for 7 pots and Scorpions would be called a Lot of different names these days.
I got the seeds in the mid 2000's.
My current 7 pot plant from isolated seeds would be called a cross,IF i posted a picture.
 
I got my seeds as Land Race , YEARS AGO,AND grew some in isolation...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top