chinense Trinidad Moruga Scorpion does not exist?

[hot stuff]

I tell you, I got started 5 years ago and there were about 10 different 7 pot "varieties" going around then. Now I can't all the "new" 7 pot varieties.
 
Now I will admit, I wouldn't mind if people were hawking F1 hybrids as F1 hybrids, all the major seed companies sell mostly hybrid peppers. I stand in wonder how they go about doing all the crossing every year. These are not stable varieties and aren't sold as such.  But we chili pepper people I find only like stable hybrids. Why? Because we're cheap and we want to grow out this year's seeds and get the same thing next year.

 

[AJ Drew]

hot stuff, I started seed saving for that reason.  I am a cheap bastard.  But am thinking it kind of grows into an obsession to improve the dna of what you are growing.

 

 

 

 

[coachspencerxc]

My current 7 pot plant from isolated seeds would be called a cross,IF i posted a picture.
 
I got my seeds as Land Race , YEARS AGO,AND grew some in isolation...

Please do! I'm interested to see.

 

[Datil]

Using search feature correctly brings up very interesting old posts from the people who started the whole game and everyone can 'educate' himself if really interested before opening the same threads endless times.
Some examples:
 
 

OK everyone, the legend of the Scopion as I know it.

Rewind to 2004...rumors on GardenWeb of a pepper a guy from Maryland states are the hottest damn thing ever he got at a local nursery called Valley View Farms in Cockeysville, MD. We all think rumor...bs...yeah OK, etc. Next 100s of people of couse begging for seed. I believe the owners of the nursery went to Trinidad years ago and acquried some stuff - never sold a 7 pot to my knowledge and refused to ship plants or sell seeds so the plant was only avaialble to locals.

2005...friend on another forum somehow gets gifted SIX seeds from this person and no one else seems to have gotten them. Grows them out that year, takes a bite and posts HOLY #### these FU##ERS are the hottest thing ever.

2006...gifts seeds to select chileheads across the globe and we get our first taste that year of the fireballs. OMG was my first reaction biting into one. Hottest and still probably hottest ever IMO. Douglah is close. 7 Pod too. Mass seed production generated by someone famous on this forum who knows a thing or two about heat. Not me...lol.

2007: Seeds spread widely across Europe and Italian chileheads go insane with them. Becomes well-known and sold at some websites. The craze is on...heat will never be the same again. The superhot era begins (except for TheChileMan introducting the Naga Morich even earlier when we thought mythical). I still remember asking him for seeds many years ago.

2008....we know the story...endless colors of superhots and pain for all. lol.

2009....TBD

Chris

 
 
 

From what I know... There are a few different varieties of 7 Pods... and Scorpion is one of them...

 
 

7 pods varieties that I know... The Scorpion, Douglah, 7 Pot Red & 7 Pot Yellow. I believe there are more but I have to investigate...

 
 
 

I originally received the Trinidad Scorpion seeds from a former MSN Pepper forum & C2C member(the forum was closed by MSN) named Mark, he simply told me it was as hot as anything he ever ate, which tweaked my interest and I requested a few seeds from him which I grew out, after tasteing the first pod I knew how special it was and dedicated the entire season to saving seeds to give out the, "Coast 2 Coast pepper company way" I posted pictures of the pods and Mark had remarked that the ones I grew were more "well defined" than the ones he grew, why? idk.
The name Trinidad Scorpion ButchT was coined by some of the growers in OZ, Hippy, Nova, Potawie,? Because of the way I labeled my seed packets I guess.(I would put the pepper name first, my name second then the year the seeds were from) Neil was pushing this pepper from the first time he videoed himself eating it! I am extremely happy to see the world record go to someone who has dedicated his life to eating and growing peppers, the fact that he acknowledged that the seeds originally came from me was a bit of a shock and delight, that that type of values was still present in this competitive world. I tip my hat to you Mr. HippySeed!

ButchT

 
 

i hear ya on the whole naming a pepper based on where u found it.... that's kinda what i did when i 'discovered' the Barrackpore 7 pot unfortunately...... it was a pimply little thing i saw growing in my friend's yard who lives in barrackpore.... he said the pepper was a result of crosses..... the plant was almost dying and had very small peppers.... some seeds were salvaged... got a few pods from the first plant, posted it here.... many other more experienced pepper growers said they didn't come across any 7's that looked like that.... soooooo pepper from barrackpore.... Barrackpore 7.... lol

 
And so on... have fun
 
Datil

 

[hot stuff]

Yep, I remember reading all those post.

 

[AJ Drew]

Datil ...and not one addressing CARDI's claim or the relationship between what CARDI calls a scorpion and what others call a scorpion.  Which is what I inquired about.  You know, the title of the OP being just about a quote from CARDI.

Seems to me several folk have been enjoying this thread and where it is going.  Members communicating, enjoying the conversation.  Thinking maybe the redundancy police ought to now go rag on people asking why their leaves are turning yellow.

 

[compmodder26]

While they may not specifically address CARDI's claim, TriniHottie is Sarah R. (can't remember her full last name), who is from Trinidad and Tobago.  She has been integral and spreading the Trinidad varieties (IE 7 Pot, Scorpion, etc.) throughout the world.  Many varieties bear her initials.  She may not be CARDI, but she's about as close as we'll come probably.

 

[AJ Drew]

Compmodder, not trashing on her at all.  I started this thread trying to decide where the CARDI scorpion fits in.  So while information about the lines she has helped to spread is certainly welcome, it does not address the relationship to what CARDI developed with similiar language.

Imagine trying to decide what relationship a rabbit has to other mammals.  We could look at the name and associate it with things that have a similiar name.  That seems to be what most people who classify peppers do.  We could classify it by the look of the thing and then we would wind up thinking it is a rodent. That seems to be conventional thinking on the rabbit.  Or we could look at the dna and learn that the rabbit is more closely related to a kangaroo than a rat.

My current thinking is that there was a very large gene pool that was generally called scorpion peppers.  CARDI refined that gene pool via selection to create the CARDI Scorpion.  Others refined the thing in different directions to create other varieties.  So I am thinking that although people say the Trinidad Scorpion and the Moruga Scorpion are completely different peppers that in reality they are varieties of the same pepper just as the CARDI Scopion is.

Unfortunately, the discussion is often hampered by folk who also seem to think that white folk just sort of sprouted from the ground and are completely different than black folk.  I prefer to think we are all related to a common ancestor.  You know, science and all.  So wondering what that common ancestor was for many of the peppers.  Trying to create a flow chart of sorts explaining the various changes that took place.

 

[Chewi]

i enjoy all threads where people talk british

 

[hot stuff]

I'm sure that most of all the superhots are related. They may not be decended from the CARDI scorpion though. In fact, it is highly likely that the CARDI scorpion is itself a strain developed by CARDI and is not a landrace but comes from a common landrace as the rest of them.
 
Anyone know the exact development of the CARDI scorpion? When it was developed, stabilized etc.?
 
Perhaps more likely with chilies going around the world they (all the varieties we are seeing) are developed from a common landrace that brought here and it was full of genetic diversity. When one of those traits made an appearance people started developing that particular trait.  Much like dogs or rabbits. Like them at one point in time there was just a couple of dogs that were full of genetic variety. People started developing the traits they saw exposed and now we have all sorts of variety.
 
That's my theory.

 

[mpicante]

I'm sure that most of all the superhots are related. They may not be decended from the CARDI scorpion though. In fact, it is highly likely that the CARDI scorpion is itself a strain developed by CARDI and is not a landrace but comes from a common landrace as the rest of them.
 
Anyone know the exact development of the CARDI scorpion? When it was developed, stabilized etc.?
 
Perhaps more likely with chilies going around the world they (all the varieties we are seeing) are developed from a common landrace that brought here and it was full of genetic diversity. When one of those traits made an appearance people started developing that particular trait.  Much like dogs or rabbits. Like them at one point in time there was just a couple of dogs that were full of genetic variety. People started developing the traits they saw exposed and now we have all sorts of variety.
 
That's my theory.

This actually makes sense.

 

[meinchoh]

i enjoy all threads where people talk british

Tally ho!!!!
I'm guessing that CARDI doesn't even recognize a large percentage of super hots because they didn't have a hand in them. After all, isn't CARDI a government agency?

I'm sure that most of all the superhots are related. They may not be decended from the CARDI scorpion though. In fact, it is highly likely that the CARDI scorpion is itself a strain developed by CARDI and is not a landrace but comes from a common landrace as the rest of them.
 
Anyone know the exact development of the CARDI scorpion? When it was developed, stabilized etc.?
 
Perhaps more likely with chilies going around the world they (all the varieties we are seeing) are developed from a common landrace that brought here and it was full of genetic diversity. When one of those traits made an appearance people started developing that particular trait.  Much like dogs or rabbits. Like them at one point in time there was just a couple of dogs that were full of genetic variety. People started developing the traits they saw exposed and now we have all sorts of variety.
 
That's my theory.

http://www.cardi.org/commodities-themes/hot-peppers/

 

[hot stuff]

Well there you go. They've(CARDI) been developing/stabilizing it about as long as chileheads around the world have been.

 

[meinchoh]

Notice under the seeds for sale, they say that the Moruga Scorpion does not exist...

 

[AJ Drew]

Hot stuff, on Scorpion CARDI not being a landrace: that is what I am thinking as well.  Previously, I had thought that Scorpion CARDI was a refinement of what we call Trinidad Scorpion.  Now I am thinking more they have a common ancestor that I am going to call Scorpion X for this conversation.

Seems to make sense because only a limited number of seeds initially made their way into the hands of chili heads who grew it out and separated out the genes further. 
 
Scorpion X -> Trinidad Scorpion -> Butch T (and others)
Scorpion X -> Scorpion CARDI

Thinking that in the part of the world where they originate, the term Scorpion pepper (what I am calling Scorpion X) is kind of like the word apple in that it is used to describe a huge gene pool.  Seems to make much sense that there are other landrace Scorpion varieties there whose genes were not included in what made its way into the hands of the chilihead breeder phenomena.

Now thinking on the way things happen here in the US, where seed saving does not often lend itself to creating landrace variety creation vs. what things are like in other parts of the world where seed saving is the main way things are farmed; I have to believe that we have only scratched the very tip of the iceberg.

Willing to bet Scorpion X has a million and one more things to offer.

 

[hot stuff]

Hot stuff, on Scorpion CARDI not being a landrace: that is what I am thinking as well.  Previously, I had thought that Scorpion CARDI was a refinement of what we call Trinidad Scorpion.  Now I am thinking more they have a common ancestor that I am going to call Scorpion X for this conversation.

Seems to make sense because only a limited number of seeds initially made their way into the hands of chili heads who grew it out and separated out the genes further. 
 
Scorpion X -> Trinidad Scorpion -> Butch T (and others)
Scorpion X -> Scorpion CARDI

Thinking that in the part of the world where they originate, the term Scorpion pepper (what I am calling Scorpion X) is kind of like the word apple in that it is used to describe a huge gene pool.  Seems to make much sense that there are other landrace Scorpion varieties there whose genes were not included in what made its way into the hands of the chilihead breeder phenomena.

Now thinking on the way things happen here in the US, where seed saving does not often lend itself to creating landrace variety creation vs. what things are like in other parts of the world where seed saving is the main way things are farmed; I have to believe that we have only scratched the very tip of the iceberg.

Willing to bet Scorpion X has a million and one more things to offer.

Not to mention the 7 pod landrace which while related to the scorpions is a whole different animal with a lot of genetics in it.

That and a lot people here in the states often grow 7 pots, Scorpion and Bhuts in the same garden, so you can imagine the cross pollination happening there. lol.

 

[AJ Drew]

Hot Stuff - We grow produce stock in the field but isolate seed stock and try to select for best examples.  However, I know most folk tend to overlook the isolation step and just save seed from their best pods.  As a whole, I wonder how this influences the varieties available outside the Caribbean compared to those that remain the Caribbean.
 
If nothing else, I am sure most people tend to select from the best performing plants.  I wonder if the climate difference might have influenced the selections for the various strains.

 

[Dulac]

has everybody forgotten how much the moruga scorpion looks JUST LIKE a brainstrain red? hmmm, makes you scratch your head doesnt it?

 
Mine look nothing like brain strains. They have no bumps, lol.
 
Here is a few pics (most of the tails are blunted and stubby and I don't have a good pic of them):