Trippaul Threat (PdN x BMJ) Community Grow

This is a dedicated grow log for Tristen's awesome cross, which I
have been growing out since 2014.  I'll start with a bit of history and
some photos documenting what's happened so far.
 
In January of 2014, Tristen (Trippa) sent me a little care package of seeds.
In the package were two generations of a cross he had made, which he just 
called 'Mystery Cross, F1' and 'Mystery Cross, F2'.  
 
Here's Trippa's Mystery Cross seedlings in February of 2014:

 

 
Both generations showing the purple foliage characteristic since the beginning.
 
Up close look at Trippa's Mystery Crosses, F1 and F2.  Both culled to a single
plant after the photo taken, so I only had one plant of each generation:

 

[b3rnd]

I'm pretty sure the Fish was a natural mutation, yes. It does happen, very rarely. If you want to produce a striped hybrid, I wouldn't bet on getting lucky with natural random mutations though. I have no idea how the Pink Tiger got its stripes, perhaps also by chance, or perhaps by giving nature a hand with some chemicals or radiation.

 

[YAMracer754]

Anyone tried fermenting these? Only have like a lb of fresh left and need to put em up just wondering which styles this peppers flavor lends itself to well (I. E. Ferment, smoke, dried, freeze, hot sauce, jam, etc..).

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[PaulG]

Variegation, unfortunately, doesn't appear out of thin air. A mutation could occur randomly, sure. But really you'd need to introduce a gene for variegation through crossing it with a variegated pepper like the Fish. That's not something you should try before the strain is stable though because the recombination of heterozygous genes will shuffle the cards again. You'd ideally want to have as little gene variety as possible because you already know exactly which trait you want to pass on.
Thanks for bringing us back down to reality 
Besides, if I try to imagine these two pheno's combined in a variegated way, it kinda looks like the Pink Tiger in my brain. I'd say keep it going like this, the pepper is also pretty amazing.
 
 
Edit: Small correction of my previous posts (#787): When I said heterozygous, I meant homozygous. Small mistake but worth mentioning. I, of course, saw that right away  : 

Thanks, Bernd. I am definitely going to keep the cross going as it is.  
If I were going to do anything, I would start over with the cross and
be much more careful about how I handled the first 3 or 4 generations.
 
It has been very interesting as it is, and I think this year and next year
should be pretty well developed from semi-isolated plants.
 

Then how did the fish and pink tiger come to be? Mutations do naturally occur, also it might be a more likely chance since the Pink tiger is about half PDN.

 
Good question.  Hundreds of years of selection and crossbreeding
should give rise to a number of mutations, right?

 

[Trippa]

Good to hear from you, Chuck! I hope things are well at your end.
 
I hope the seeds germ well for you.  The past two seasons, I've had
a hard time with them. I don't know if my routine has deteriorated or
if these are just tough to germinate.  I start lots to hopefully make sure
I get a few hooks.
 
 Alright, let the hot times roll!
 
Most interesting, Bernd.  I wish I had kept more seed from the original
plants I had.  The yellow F3 would have been a great one to grow out.
 
I suppose the only way to recover that generation is to start a new cross
of the PDN x BMJ and see if a yellow pod emerges in the F3 again. The yellow
F3 pods were on my neighbor's plant, and I did't get any seed from that one    
 
Maybe that is a project worth getting into.

Paul ... Going through my seed catalog last week. I do believe I found the original f2 and f3 seed.
Now this seed will be 4-5years old now so no guarantees but they have been stored in the fridge the whole time , so may be viable?

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[PaulG]

Anyone tried fermenting these? Only have like a lb of fresh left and need to put em up just wondering which styles this peppers flavor lends itself to well (I. E. Ferment, smoke, dried, freeze, hot sauce, jam, etc..).

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I have only eaten them fresh and powdered, Tristan.
They make a nice, hot powder. Smoked powder might be good.
I've only done that with Red Habaneros and Scorpions.
 
How was your harvest in the end? Any great pods?

 

[PaulG]

Paul ... Going through my seed catalog last week. I do believe I found the original f2 and f3 seed.
Now this seed will be 4-5years old now so no guarantees but they have been stored in the fridge the whole time , so may be viable?

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That's very good news, Tristen 
 
How many seeds do you have? It would be awesome to see
if the F2 pods are yellow like last time.
 
I would say it is definitely worth a try. If they have been sealed
and dry they should be good to go.  I'm trying to grow some
older seed in 2019 as well, including the F2 of the Yellow 7 Pot
seed you sent me back in 2013  
 
I don't mind planting six seeds to get one plant in cases like this.  
But those F2 and F3 are gold, brothah!
 
How's the greenhouse doing? Can't wait to see some pix of your plants!

 

[Trippa]

That's very good news, Tristen 
 
How many seeds do you have? It would be awesome to see
if the F2 pods are yellow like last time.
 
I would say it is definitely worth a try. If they have been sealed
and dry they should be good to go.  I'm trying to grow some
older seed in 2019 as well, including the F2 of the Yellow 7 Pot
seed you sent me back in 2013  
 
I don't mind planting six seeds to get one plant in cases like this.  
But those F2 and F3 are gold, brothah!
 
How's the greenhouse doing? Can't wait to see some pix of your plants!

Yeah... Some of those f2-f3 seeds have your name on them Paul ... Will get them out to you.

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[PaulG]

Yeah... Some of those f2-f3 seeds have your name on them Paul ... Will get them out to you.

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That's just awesome, Tristen! Thank you very much!
 
I guess there is something to be said for hoarding seeds 

 

[b3rnd]

Good question.  Hundreds of years of selection and crossbreeding
should give rise to a number of mutations, right?

 
Yes, and that does happen. PImenta da Neyde is a great example of this; the anthocyanin retaining mutation is one of a kind and occurred naturally. It just doesn't happen often enough to be useful for plant breeders. That's why in the majority of the cases breeders use mutagens to induce mutations in bulk. They blast hundreds of seeds with gamma radiation or soak them in a mutagenic chemical until the viability of the seeds is about 50%. Half of the seeds will be barren, the other half will survive and be chock full of mutations. Some mutations will be visible, some won't. Some will be useful, some won't. They grow a bunch of plants and select which mutations are worthwhile and breed out all the other mutations through backcrossing.
 
Because most mutations actually don't really do anything, waiting for natural mutations that are useful is like playing the lottery. To get anywhere you need to force your hand by crossing or artificially mutating genes into the plant.

 

[SpeakPolish]

 
Yes, and that does happen. PImenta da Neyde is a great example of this; the anthocyanin retaining mutation is one of a kind and occurred naturally. It just doesn't happen often enough to be useful for plant breeders. That's why in the majority of the cases breeders use mutagens to induce mutations in bulk. They blast hundreds of seeds with gamma radiation or soak them in a mutagenic chemical until the viability of the seeds is about 50%. Half of the seeds will be barren, the other half will survive and be chock full of mutations. Some mutations will be visible, some won't. Some will be useful, some won't. They grow a bunch of plants and select which mutations are worthwhile and breed out all the other mutations through backcrossing.
 
Because most mutations actually don't really do anything, waiting for natural mutations that are useful is like playing the lottery. To get anywhere you need to force your hand by crossing or artificially mutating genes into the plant.

Well the PDN is most likely an Annum and Chinense cross, which mightve helped make the mutation. https://www.facebook.com/groups/Chilies/
X-Chillies has a bunch of papers on how to mutate chillies using X-Rays and other ways, its very fun to read and definitely doable.

 

[b3rnd]

Well the PDN is most likely an Annum and Chinense cross, which mightve helped make the mutation. https://www.facebook.com/groups/Chilies/
X-Chillies has a bunch of papers on how to mutate chillies using X-Rays and other ways, its very fun to read and definitely doable.

 
Crossing doesn't create mutations. It's doable, sure. If you have access to an X-ray machine, that's awesome. I wouldn't mess around with that EMS stuff though. I'd very much like to not mutate myself and possibly give myself cancer. I'd like to try using UV-C germicidal lamp some time but due to the low penetrability of it, it probably wouldn't work with pepper seeds.
 
Anyway, if we want to continue this we should probably open a separate topic.

 

[Orekoc]

Paul, if you do get some yellow podded ones from the F2 or F3 seed, could I get cuttings from the plants?
 
 

 

[YAMracer754]

Paul, if you do get some yellow podded ones from the F2 or F3 seed, could I get cuttings from the plants?
 
 

Yellow pods? That sounds like a recession into the constituent lineage like a bonda MA jaques w/o pimienta de nadye

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[PaulG]

Paul, if you do get some yellow podded ones from the F2 or F3 seed, could I get cuttings from the plants?
 
 

The F4 pods this year came from some F3 seed I had
saved. Some of the pods were light yellow in the F4.
I really want to see What Tristens F2 will produce in
another trial, but I feel most all subsequent generations
will lose the darker yellow color.

But, to answer your question, sure. All the F2 should
produce yellow pods.

 

[PaulG]

Yellow pods? That sounds like a recession into the constituent lineage like a bonda MA jaques w/o pimienta de nadye

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Except with purple foliage . There are pix of them
In the early stages of this thread. The point for me
would be to start a more careful grow of the F2 with
more plants than one and see how it grows out. My
guess is not really too diifferent. Just something fun to
think about, I suppose.

 

[YAMracer754]

Except with purple foliage [emoji6]. There are pix of them
In the early stages of this thread. The point for me
would be to start a more careful grow of the F2 with
more plants than one and see how it grows out. My
guess is not really too diifferent. Just something fun to
think about, I suppose.

Damn I will have to look deeper in this thread and take a look at these yellow bmj colored pods with pdn coloring! There was a bios science term that describes this phenomenon with hybrid creations but I cant think of it at the moment.. How's the flavor of those pods vs the parental lineage of the two? I'm interested to see what my same named brotha from anotha mother named Tristen turns out too!
Holiday Cheers!
-Tristan

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[b3rnd]

Yellow pods? That sounds like a recession into the constituent lineage like a bonda MA jaques w/o pimienta de nadye

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The F4 pods this year came from some F3 seed I had
saved. Some of the pods were light yellow in the F4.
I really want to see What Tristens F2 will produce in
another trial, but I feel most all subsequent generations
will lose the darker yellow color.

But, to answer your question, sure. All the F2 should
produce yellow pods.

 
YAMracer, in one of my earlier posts I explained my theory that Pimenta da Neyde is actually homozygous for the gene that makes a pepper yellow (in fact it seems that the pepper is actually white underneath all that purple). The fact that Paul just mentioned that all the F2's produced yellow pods confirms that. A cross between two plants that are homozygous for a certain gene will always be homozygous for that gene as well.
 
 
Edit: I can't stop thinking about the red colour in one of the later generations though. Paul, were all the seeds isolated or could any accidental crossage have happened?
 
Edit2: I'm now thinking I might've misunderstood your post, YAMracer. If so, sorry about that. English is not my first language so...

 

[PaulG]

How's the flavor of those pods vs the parental lineage of the two?
The flavors of both the F1 Red and F2 Yellow were good, with the
same pleasant flavor the later violet and white pods have. I remember
munching a red one while deseeding a pod and it was hot. I think the
latest generations seem hotter, but that may be my imagination!
 
I'm interested to see what my same named brotha from anotha mother named Tristen turns out too!
Holiday Cheers!
-Tristan

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Me too, Tristan! Always something good down in NZ!
Some of my best plants have come from seed Tristen
sent me!
 

Edit: I can't stop thinking about the red colour in one of the later generations though. Paul, were all the seeds isolated or could any accidental crossage have happened?

 
Hey Bernd. You really have your thinking cap on!
 
The red pods came in the F1 of Tristen's cross, the F2 yellow pods,
and all subsequent generations white until the F5/F6 which have
picked up more violet/purple. In my grow, 2/3 of the white-pod-seed
plants produced violet shaded pods, one produced predominantly
white pods until the Fall. The F6 from the purple-pod-seed produced
pods similar to the others, perhaps darker overall.  I'm not growing
out any F6P seed, since my own interest is really in the white pods.
We'll see if this trend continues next season. It would be great to have
the space to truly isolate 20-30 plants and really get a handle on it.
 
The F4 plants in this year's grow produced all white pods
until the cool Fall weather. It will be interesting to see how
the F5 generation does compared to 2017's F5s. 
 
It is possible there was an accidental cross because I did
not have the plants isolated, although the only plants in my
grow this year were F4 and F6. My neighbor did have some
chili varieties growing closer the F4, but my F6 were 50-60
feet away.  That's one reason I'd like to start over with the
F2 and see if the same development of color occurs under
more rigorous growing conditions, i.e. more attention to isolating,
and growing out more than one or two F2 and F3 plants. When
I started this, I was only care-taking the cross for Tristen while
he got his growing situation squared away, and was just going
to send him the F3 seeds.
 
It turned into something more than that, and has been a real
adventure for me. Any screw-ups along the way have been
all mine! I am looking forward to seeing how things go in NZ
this season.
 
Thanks to those growers who have taken an interest in
the development of Tristen's cross. Very interesting
discussions.

 

[Devv]

My F6 seeds are in the dirt!

 

[PaulG]

My F6 seeds are in the dirt!

Alright! Bring on the F7 
 
Once again, Devv is first out of the gate in the Northern
Hemisphere, to the best of my knowledge